All change in Greece - Maybe!

[alenka]

At the start of the year it was suggested by Greek Authorities that the DEKPA (cruising permit) was going to be phased out and replaced by the requirement to carry a new form of crew list that needed only to be stamped by port police when someone new came onboard or someone departed.  All in all a much simpler system.

This has now been dropped back to September, at the earliest, so for the moment there is still a need to carry an in-date stamped DEKPA. Or face a fine of around €500.

Alas, the whole non-EU boat, non EU crew thing created for Brit's by BREXIT has thrown up another complication and the Greeks are thinking of going back to the situation associated with the old style DEKPA/Transit Log, that requires all such vessels and crew to check in and out of every port visited. A major headache for both port police and cruisers alike.

As always the situation regarding DEKPA and Transit Logs is in a state of flux and lobbying is going on to keep it simple.

Just to recap on the VAT situation.  If a British registered, VAT paid boat, is in EU waters on final BREXIT day it will be awarded EU VAT paid status - Just make sure you are in a place that can give you acceptable evidence of where you are.  This will overcome the 18 month rule and having to pay a second VAT payment if your intended EU cruising is more permanent.    

[jy51]

alenka,

Many thanks for the info, it seems life will become very complicated for us Brits cruising EU/Schengen waters after next year.

There is one point you raised, regarding VAT qualification, that seems to defy normal taxation rules!  

I am sorry if I have misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that;

(1)    UK flagged boats that are VAT paid in the UK and currently berthed in EU waters, will be accepted as VAT paid by local EU member states after next year.  (this part I understand and agree with)

(2)    Any UK flagged boats that are VAT paid in the UK before the UK left the EU would be deemed by local EU member states as having no VAT status when entering EU water after next year. (this I would say is questionable)

I can understand the principle that after the UK has left the EU and are none aligned with EU VAT rules, any new boat purchased in the UK, and having VAT paid in the UK, would, if moved to EU waters require under EU law to have EU VAT paid again, as they do not recognise taxation paid on the boat to a third Country.  This will result in owners having to pay, what in their eyes, is in effect, double taxation, two lots of VAT a considerable amount of money on a nearly new boat, if they wish to move to a mediterranean berth.

The cheapest option for UK purchasers of new boats, who are considering berthing in a mediterranean marina would be to purchase in the EU and pay the VAT in the EU, sadly depriving the UK of taxation and trade. 

The problem with the (2) statement is that all older VAT paid boats that were registered in the UK would have had the registration of tax taken place while the UK was in alignment with EU taxation rule. Taxing the same boats a second time, if they entered EU waters would imply retrospective taxation, meaning the EU would be implementing a form of taxation before the law was passed as these boats were legally VAT registered for all EU water at the time of taxation.

I suppose the only opposite argument to this, is that all agreements and alignments stop from next year, but that is to simplify a very complex situation as we do have double taxation agreements with EU countries along with Pension rights and various other taxation agreements which should continue after next year.

[alenka]

Apr 29, 2020 9:32:24 GMT jy51 said:

(1)    UK flagged boats that are VAT paid in the UK and currently berthed in EU waters, will be accepted as VAT paid by local EU member states after next year.  (this part I understand and agree with)

(2)    Any UK flagged boats that are VAT paid in the UK before the UK left the EU would be deemed by local EU member states as having no VAT status when entering EU water after next year. (this I would say is questionable)

I can understand the principle that after the UK has left the EU and are none aligned with EU VAT rules, any new boat purchased in the UK, and having VAT paid in the UK, would, if moved to EU waters require under EU law to have EU VAT paid again, as they do not recognise taxation paid on the boat to a third Country.  This will result in owners having to pay, what in their eyes, is in effect, double taxation, two lots of VAT a considerable amount of money on a nearly new boat, if they wish to move to a mediterranean berth.

The cheapest option for UK purchasers of new boats, who are considering berthing in a mediterranean marina would be to purchase in the EU and pay the VAT in the EU, sadly depriving the UK of taxation and trade. 

The problem with the (2) statement is that all older VAT paid boats that were registered in the UK would have had the registration of tax taken place while the UK was in alignment with EU taxation rule. Taxing the same boats a second time, if they entered EU waters would imply retrospective taxation, meaning the EU would be implementing a form of taxation before the law was passed as these boats were legally VAT registered for all EU water at the time of taxation.

I suppose the only opposite argument to this, is that all agreements and alignments stop from next year, but that is to simplify a very complex situation as we do have double taxation agreements with EU countries along with Pension rights and various other taxation agreements which should continue after next year.

You will appreciate that the whole thing is still very fluid and already a few statements made by the EU have been modified or retracted.  I guess it will all come down to deal or no deal.

With regards to VAT paid Brit boats visiting (not staying) the EU after Brexit day my understanding is that you may do so without immediately having to pay VAT on entry but, like all other none EU countries we will either have to leave EU waters within 18 months to reset the clock, put the boat into bond with customs or pay VAT a 2nd time.   A VAT paid Brit boat that is already in EU waters on Brexit day will not have to do this.

Paying VAT twice is already the case if you leave EU waters for over three years and bring the boat back (I think it is three years) but there are also exemptions and you may qualify for re-importing personal items.  My understanding is that HMRC will look at this exemption clause when those of us in the Med wish to bring our boats back to the UK many years down the line.... but no one is going out on a limb to confirm this I gather.

Several years ago I tried to buy a SO42DS in Corfu, owned by an American and registered on the Jersey flag.  No VAT had ever been paid.  The Greeks would not let me pay the VAT to them saying it is a British boat tax must be paid in Britain.  HMRC rightly pointed out that the point of sale/purchase for me was Greece so VAT had to paid to them.  In short, no one would take my money and although it was tempting to sail the boat to Malta and pay the lower rates of VAT there, the whole thing got so messy it was time to walk away.

As an aside, in 7 years of being based in Greece I have never once been asked for my VAT invoice.  That may change. There are certain ports in Greece that are known for being very officious and handing out large fines for simple things like out of date flares, fire extinguishers, being out of stamp on the DEKPA, etc..  People buying in Greece should also be aware that there are lots of ex-charter boats where VAT was paid but reclaimed so no longer have VAT paid status.  Many of the better brokers down there will not list boats with a doubtful background so be careful of the private sale and the knockdown price.

[vasko]

How sure you are about that the DEKPA  will be still required till September 2020 ? 

So far my understanding was that the DEKPA is already scraped and only TEPAI need to be paid.... 

[jy51]

alenka,

I do not disagree with you, this is a very complex situation that could go either way, and of course we must not forget that Value Added Tax was first introduced by the EU as a guideline that was adapted within in each sovereign state with their own rate of tax and requirements making rules from country to country slightly ambiguous.

Your comments on losing VAT status after 3 years is technically correct, but only if taking exporting and importing. This would entail moving the boat to a none EU country and adapting the local rules, re-registration and flying a different flag.

I do not believe that leaving ones home port, to sail around the world, in transit for more than 3 years before returning, maintaining the boats registration statues, and flying a British flag would attract double taxation. Also the rule you speak of relates to the boat being reimported by the original tax paying owner.

It seems everyone has a different view of what could happen. My personal view is it all boils down to the fact the up until the end of 2020 The UK was classed as within the EU so anything that took place within the UK up until this date is compliant with the EU.

What we haven’t touched on is the possibility that the UK might, in their desire to distance themselves and become totally unaligned to the EU, drop VAT and replace it with a different kind of tax. Now that would complicate the situation!

Regarding your comments of non VAT statues boats staying in the UK, I am led to believe that the cut off period is 6 months, but to be honest I have never fully understood how each country seems to adapt its own rules on this issue. I have known non VAT paid boats from outside the EU being allowed to stay permanently in Spain as long as the Spanish customs seal up the boat for six months each winter period with access from the owner prohibited. In France I know of American flagged yachts that pop over to North Africa for a day or to each year to qualify. Frankly, it’s a minefield of rules and regulations.

One term to remember is “in transit” and this might be the future problem for UK registered and VAT paid boats kept in EU marinas. I do not confess to understand international maritime law, but could the day arrive, when an EU Country decides that we must import our boat into the Country where it is permanently berthed? I believe this could be a far bigger problem than VAT issues.

[alenka]

Apr 29, 2020 12:43:16 GMT vasko said:

How sure you are about that the DEKPA  will be still required till September 2020 ? 

So far my understanding was that the DEKPA is already scraped and only TEPAI need to be paid.... 

My last information is that the new legislation did not pass into law and with the current cover situation this will be delayed. Until it is passed into law DEKPA is still the only valid document.

[alenka]

Apr 29, 2020 12:54:56 GMT jy51 said:

alenka,

I do not disagree with you, this is a very complex situation that could go either way, and of course we must not forget that Value Added Tax was first introduced by the EU as a guideline that was adapted within in each sovereign state with their own rate of tax and requirements making rules from country to country slightly ambiguous.

Your comments on losing VAT status after 3 years is technically correct, but only if taking exporting and importing. This would entail moving the boat to a none EU country and adapting the local rules, re-registration and flying a different flag.

I do not believe that leaving ones home port, to sail around the world, in transit for more than 3 years before returning, maintaining the boats registration statues, and flying a British flag would attract double taxation. Also the rule you speak of relates to the boat being reimported by the original tax paying owner.

It seems everyone has a different view of what could happen. My personal view is it all boils down to the fact the up until the end of 2020 The UK was classed as within the EU so anything that took place within the UK up until this date is compliant with the EU.

What we haven’t touched on is the possibility that the UK might, in their desire to distance themselves and become totally unaligned to the EU, drop VAT and replace it with a different kind of tax. Now that would complicate the situation!

Regarding your comments of non VAT statues boats staying in the UK, I am led to believe that the cut off period is 6 months, but to be honest I have never fully understood how each country seems to adapt its own rules on this issue. I have known non VAT paid boats from outside the EU being allowed to stay permanently in Spain as long as the Spanish customs seal up the boat for six months each winter period with access from the owner prohibited. In France I know of American flagged yachts that pop over to North Africa for a day or to each year to qualify. Frankly, it’s a minefield of rules and regulations.

One term to remember is “in transit” and this might be the future problem for UK registered and VAT paid boats kept in EU marinas. I do not confess to understand international maritime law, but could the day arrive, when an EU Country decides that we must import our boat into the Country where it is permanently berthed? I believe this could be a far bigger problem than VAT issues.

As you say taxation is a very complex subject made all the harder because trying to talk by telephone to anyone in HMRC regarding boat tax is almost impossible - I have tried. 

I have seen numerous threads on forums regarding the three year rule and none make it sound simple.  As I have never contemplated leaving EU waters for longer than 3 years I have not sought detailed advice but if I was to do so I would first start at the RYA.

The cruising Association is trying to get HMRC to confirm that leaving boats in the EU for longer than 3 years will not attract double taxation when eventually returning to the UK but I believe they have nothing definite at the moment.

With regards to VAT and length of stay in EU waters post BREXIT day, the simple way forward (at the moment) for anyone with a goal to do extended cruising in EU waters is to ensure you are in the Eurozone, in a suitable marina, that will issue as acceptable receipt/proof of your boat being there on said transition day. There is still time for this to change.

There are many Aussi's, Kiwi's, Americans, etc., that keep their boats in Greece full time.  It seems they can extend the time the vessel can remain without being liable for VAT by either putting it into bond when not in use, or by making a visit to somewhere like Albania or Turkey to reset the clock.

Some confusion comes about because boat stays, people stays and taxation rules are all different. Schengen rules state that anyone from a non member state and/or outside the Eurozone can only stay 90 days in a rolling 180 days. A residency permit may allow you to extend this but only for the country in question - Greek residency does not mean you can extend your stay in, say, France.
At the moment Greeks have been giving residency permits to boat owners with a marina contract.

If using a residency permit you should also be ware that staying in a country for longer than 183 days in a year will make you liable for personal taxation in that country. A friend of mine who has gone down this road shows his Greek residency permit on entry and exit rather than his UK passport.
   
You should also be ware that staying in a country for longer than 183 days in a year will generally make you liable for personal taxation in that country. 

[jy51]

I agree with most of the points you raise.

Your comment on staying in a country more than 183 days will generally make you liable for personal taxation in that country is a Schengen rule, and only applies to EU citizens as a condition to their right of movement. This situation would not normally arise when a none EU citizen takes up a temporary visa with a member state, if caught over staying a fixed term visa, a fine and refusal to apply again would normally apply. This would typically arise if a student overstayed his visa term.

Entering the EU region under the Schengen Visa free scheme doesn’t offer any opportunity to extend or alter the visa. The only possible way to stay more than 90 days in Spain, Greece or any other member state would be to apply directly to that country to see if they offer any form of residency that would be an alternative to the Schengen scheme, incidentally contrary to what you implied, none of them have the right to extend the Schengen visa 90 day rule, there is no such thing as a Schengen visa extension.

Applying for any form of residency in any Country let alone an EU member state is not a given right and can be time consuming and costly. There’s too many types of visas, and every Country has different rules and regulations, making it impossible to generalise. But considering the Schengen scheme offers a holiday and business access to the member states I can only imaging that any residence visa offered by a member state would be for retirement, study or work purposes. I cannot image any country would offer a visa that would replace the Schengen rules or our previous EU citizens rights.

The bottom line, is that from next year, Those with a UK passports will no longer be permitted to spend the whole summer on their Med based boats, 90 days will the new maximum. Followed by a further 90 days before you can go back to the boat.

Previously while exercising our EU freedom of movement we were allowed 181 days before having to apply for resident status, but working on the bases of what they didn’t know won’t hurt them I knew many who stretched their stay well beyond the 181 days. Also people would come and go at will with no need to count up the days as there was little if any control.  Sadly, with none EU airport queues and stamped passports, followed by, the soon to be introduced computerised border control system, with Brits having to apply on line with dates and reasons to visit the EU region, this will no longer be possible. 

Anyone wishing to stay longer, would need to approach an individual member country to apply for a residency permit which starts to be very complicated, time consuming and involves tax implications. For most this will not be a viable option and those long summer mediterranean cruises will become a thing of the past.

[alenka]

All sounds pretty much on the mark to me JY51.

I personally have no intention of staying beyond the 90 days in 180.  I know many Brit's with boats in Greece have applied for a residency permit and have had it granted using their boat/marina address. However, I am not sure that they don't have to reapply once the UK leaves the EU.  

It is not something that interests me personally but there are threads on the CA forum explaining how to go about it should anyone be considering it.

[jy51]

Yes you are correct in what you say about having to reapply for a residency permit after Brexit. As EU members, applying for residency was a right, once our EU citizenship expires we will need to be reaccessed under different rules, which apply to the individual Country in question.

You are very lucky that this loss of free movement won’t effect you personally, unfortunately that’s not the case for many, even those still working will now have to weigh up which of the short breaks and holidays to drop to enable them to keep within the rules.  

Since retiring I have spent most of my time either sailing or in my second home in the south of France, having developed a permanent need for sun, sea and sand and not forgetting Mediterranean food and wine. I’m lucky to, in the fact that I have been able to take up French residency to continue and maintain my current lifestyle.

But I do feel sorry for those who’s sailing and lifestyles, within time will be greatly effected and for those younger than us that will not have the same level of opportunity that we experienced.

[vasko]

Apr 29, 2020 13:41:00 GMT alenka said:

Apr 29, 2020 12:43:16 GMT vasko said:

How sure you are about that the DEKPA  will be still required till September 2020 ? 

So far my understanding was that the DEKPA is already scraped and only TEPAI need to be paid.... 

My last information is that the new legislation did not pass into law and with the current cover situation this will be delayed. Until it is passed into law DEKPA is still the only valid document.

Are you still sure ? As in the Med Sailing group there is a clear letter from Cleopatra Marina from today (also a for to fill)

From Cleopatra Marina in Preveza, Greece this morning...

"Dear All,

We hope this newsletter find you all well.

Amidst this hard situation for all of us, we would like to share some good news that will make sailing in Greece easier, even for this reason.

We wish to inform you that as per Official Journal of the Greek Goverment Sheet 67 dated 19.3.2020, Article 68 par.1A, DEKPA cruising permission has been officially abolished.

All private vessels, regardless of flag, should have a crew list that is updated by the skipper/captain and does not require a visa from Port Authorities. Any changes are verified from skipper/captain with date and time of signature and the crew list has to be demostrated when requested.

You will find a log template included below.

For any further information, details and questions, you can always contact the relevant authorities"

Their log template attached.

[alenka]

Apr 30, 2020 11:18:30 GMT vasko said:

Apr 29, 2020 13:41:00 GMT alenka said:

My last information is that the new legislation did not pass into law and with the current cover situation this will be delayed. Until it is passed into law DEKPA is still the only valid document.

Are you still sure ? As in the Med Sailing group there is a clear letter from Cleopatra Marina from today (also a for to fill)

From Cleopatra Marina in Preveza, Greece this morning...

"Dear All,

We hope this newsletter find you all well.

Amidst this hard situation for all of us, we would like to share some good news that will make sailing in Greece easier, even for this reason.

We wish to inform you that as per Official Journal of the Greek Goverment Sheet 67 dated 19.3.2020, Article 68 par.1A, DEKPA cruising permission has been officially abolished.

All private vessels, regardless of flag, should have a crew list that is updated by the skipper/captain and does not require a visa from Port Authorities. Any changes are verified from skipper/captain with date and time of signature and the crew list has to be demostrated when requested.

You will find a log template included below.

For any further information, details and questions, you can always contact the relevant authorities"

Their log template attached.

You are correct Vasko


Just had the same email from Cleopatra confirming that the new crew list is now the legal requirement instead of the DEKAP.  They have also attached a copy of the document that should be used but as yet I cannot upload photos since the site changes requires a secure link.  I am sure they will be available for download from other other sources.

[vasko]

attached the riginal form from Cleopatra and the form that I use and my boat stamp.

Instead of the Greek one I decided continue to use mine as they are essentially the same

[Mistroma]

I remember reading somewhere that the crew list would not include skipper/ captain or crew for most people. These terms were reserved for those employed, qualified and actually paid to carry out the job described.

Apparently we would all be listed as passengers on the crew list with no captain or crew mentioned.

Can anyone else remember seeing this comment anywhere. Not exactly intuitive and I'd expect most people to simply put captain & crew.


EDIT: I found a reference to this here. I imagine there will be arguments and plenty of differing opinions.

forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/greek-cruising-tax-update-from-the-ca.490283/post-7124153


When you are in a private recreational boat and you are not an employee you are a passenger. So you and your wife or your friends are passengers, so you need to have a passenger list only.
The crew list is for private recreational boats that have employees (captain, sailor, housekeeping, cook etc). These employees should be written in the crew list and you, your wife or your friends in the passenger list.
The difference is that: crew is people on board that are employees. Passengers are people on board that are not employees.
Your and your on-board-friends skills might describe you as "crew" in English because of your specific skills to sail and guide a boat, but it is not your profession, you are not getting paid, so you are passengers because you are there for recreational reasons, even if you are the captain by skills.

[alenka]

I wonder how many Port Police have read that paragraph and/or know the gist of it?

[alenka]

Joint Ministerial Decision No. ΔΙα / ΓΠ.οικ. 27823/2020 - Government Gazette 1651 / Β / 3-5-2020

Imposition of the measure of the prohibition of the departure and arrival of private pleasure boats and professional tourist ships in the Greek Territory, to limit the spread of the CGVID-19 corona, for the period from 4.5.2020 and 06:00 to 18.5.2020 and 06:00.

Article only

1. From Monday 4 May 2020 at 06:00 until Monday 18 May 2020 at 06:00, it is prohibited, within the Greek Territory, the departure and arrival of any type of amateur boat, private pleasure boats and commercial ships. tourist ships, regardless of flag, for precautionary public health reasons, as reported in the National Commission for the Protection of Public Health's 2.5,2020 recommendation against the COVID-19 corona.

2. During the period of par. 1, the said vessels and vessels may be moved in the following cases:

a) Emergency and force majeure related to mechanical damage, damage, anarchy and other related cases related to the safety of navigation and the protection of the marine environment,

b) formulations and test voyages, in accordance with the provisions in force and the orders of the relevant Port Authorities,

c) supply of ships and boats with fuel, water and supplies,

d) furniture in / from shipyards for repair and execution of other related works. After the completion of the above works, it is allowed to sail for individual void voyages of passengers, either to the port of mooring of the ship, or to another port of wish of this Master,

e) service exclusively for the purposes related to the security of critical energy infrastructures of the country. The present case concerns exclusively the commercial pleasure boats of law 4256/2014 (A '92).