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Post by Maravilla on Mar 11, 2020 21:07:54 GMT
I am getting a recommendation to change out to Firefly batteries plus solar to meet our electric needs. Any experience or suggestions (e.g. upgrading battery charger or alternator)? Thank you!
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Post by zaphod on Mar 12, 2020 17:26:26 GMT
I have been contemplating Firefly batteries as an upgrade to my flooded cell bank when the time comes. The nice thing about them is that they are just high end AGMs, rather than completely new tech like Lithium, so your existing charging systems should be fine.
Nobody can make a recommendation to upgrade your alternator or charger without knowing what you already have.
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Post by sunrise4 on Mar 12, 2020 21:31:38 GMT
Maravilla,
I just went through this process on my SO 419, replacing the 4 original house flooded lead acid batteries with 4 Firefly batteries. I also replaced the original engine start battery, also FLA, with a Lifeline start battery. I previously replaced the alternator charge controller with a Balmar ARS-5 controller, which has been working well. I still use the original Valeo 125A alternator.
I was hoping to keep the original Cristec shore power charger, however the Firefly batteries require a specific charge profile, which was not supported by the Cristec charger, per their manual. I tried to contact them, unsuccessfully, for a recommended setting.
In contrast, I contacted both Firefly and Balmar for technical support, which has been excellent. Firefly sent me a table of settings for the Balmar controller, and also recommended the Sterling Pro Charge 50A shore power charger. I'm using the 'Custom' setting on this charger for the Firefly specific profile, outlined in the Firefly manual.
BTW, I also added 150A fuses to each battery bank and 60A fuses at each output of the Sterling Pro Charge since the factory installation did not include these.
So far I have only three cycles on the new batteries, and so far everything is behaving as expected.
One minor side annoyance: the Scheiber panel Engine battery over-voltage beeper keeps going off at 14.7V, which is a proper temperature compensated charge voltage, but I can't find where the voltage is measured. Anyone know?
Have fun with your project!
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Post by sunrise4 on Mar 12, 2020 21:34:41 GMT
Maravilla, I forgot to add, I also have two 125W solar panels with a Victron MPPT charge controller, which has been working well for some time. I have not checked this with the new batteries yet as I don't have them installed over winter, but foresee no issues except for some new programming of the controller.
Cheers!
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Post by zaphod on Mar 12, 2020 22:04:49 GMT
Maravilla,
I just went through this process on my SO 419, replacing the 4 original house flooded lead acid batteries with 4 Firefly batteries. I also replaced the original engine start battery, also FLA, with a Lifeline start battery. I previously replaced the alternator charge controller with a Balmar ARS-5 controller, which has been working well. I still use the original Valeo 125A alternator.
I was hoping to keep the original Cristec shore power charger, however the Firefly batteries require a specific charge profile, which was not supported by the Cristec charger, per their manual. I tried to contact them, unsuccessfully, for a recommended setting.
In contrast, I contacted both Firefly and Balmar for technical support, which has been excellent. Firefly sent me a table of settings for the Balmar controller, and also recommended the Sterling Pro Charge 50A shore power charger. I'm using the 'Custom' setting on this charger for the Firefly specific profile, outlined in the Firefly manual.
BTW, I also added 150A fuses to each battery bank and 60A fuses at each output of the Sterling Pro Charge since the factory installation did not include these.
So far I have only three cycles on the new batteries, and so far everything is behaving as expected.
One minor side annoyance: the Scheiber panel Engine battery over-voltage beeper keeps going off at 14.7V, which is a proper temperature compensated charge voltage, but I can't find where the voltage is measured. Anyone know?
Have fun with your project!
Interesting! The guys I spoke to said the firefly batteries don't need any different charging profile than regular AGM batteries. Are you saying the Cristec doesnt support AGM? Or do the Firefly batteries need something different than other AGMs?
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Post by moonshadow on Mar 13, 2020 0:39:07 GMT
On my 2013 SO469 I made similar changes after a four month trip without shore power showed me the limitations of the fla batteries. I changed to 5 G31 firefly 12 v batteries. Added a Balmar SG200 monitor. I had two 68 watt solar panels from new, I changed the controller to a Victron. The 125 amp valeo alternator is good. But I worried about overheating or fast belt wear since these batteries can take a really high charge rate. So I updated the regulator with a Balmar 601 that is programmable. This week I am adding two 170 watt solar panels and another victron controller. It is true that the cristec chargers don’t quite have a perfect setting for the fireflies. But the big issue is that the float voltage won’t go low enough and the fireflies would rather just not be floated. So I turn the charger off most of the time and let the solar keep up mostly. I get to the boat often enough to turn the charger on when needed. I’m not worried about low state of charge for a while since that is no longer a problem. Overall I am happy with the batteries and my charging systems. It will take me a while to see how the additional solar works out. I’m thinking that it will likely not keep up with refridgerator and freezer along with all the electronics and winches etc. But it should be a lot better than it was! Just being able to see my charge state and solar history on the apps is nice. I used to just fire up the generator for a while when my low voltage alarm sounded.
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Post by sunrise4 on Mar 13, 2020 13:02:47 GMT
zaphod, The Cristec YPower 12V/60A settings table shows a float voltage of 13.6V for the AGM setting, whereas the Firefly manual states '13.4V or 13.5V' for the float voltage, slightly higher on the Cristec as moonshadow points out. When I called Firefly Tech Support they recommended not to use the AGM setting on the Cristec charger. For a cost of $450 for the Sterling charger I decided not to second guess the Firefly recommendation.
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Post by zaphod on Mar 13, 2020 18:12:39 GMT
zaphod, The Cristec YPower 12V/60A settings table shows a float voltage of 13.6V for the AGM setting, whereas the Firefly manual states '13.4V or 13.5V' for the float voltage, slightly higher on the Cristec as moonshadow points out. When I called Firefly Tech Support they recommended not to use the AGM setting on the Cristec charger. For a cost of $450 for the Sterling charger I decided not to second guess the Firefly recommendation. I wouldn't think 0.1v would matter that much, but I guess for what the batteries cost you don't want to take chances!
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Post by moonshadow on Mar 13, 2020 18:47:58 GMT
As a temporary measure the “winter storage” mode on the Cristec is 13.4 volts. Not good for fast charging but as an overnight float will get the job done.
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Post by j24sailor on Mar 15, 2020 2:13:13 GMT
Maravilla,
I just went through this process on my SO 419, replacing the 4 original house flooded lead acid batteries with 4 Firefly batteries. I also replaced the original engine start battery, also FLA, with a Lifeline start battery. I previously replaced the alternator charge controller with a Balmar ARS-5 controller, which has been working well. I still use the original Valeo 125A alternator.
I was hoping to keep the original Cristec shore power charger, however the Firefly batteries require a specific charge profile, which was not supported by the Cristec charger, per their manual. I tried to contact them, unsuccessfully, for a recommended setting. In contrast, I contacted both Firefly and Balmar for technical support, which has been excellent. Firefly sent me a table of settings for the Balmar controller, and also recommended the Sterling Pro Charge 50A shore power charger. I'm using the 'Custom' setting on this charger for the Firefly specific profile, outlined in the Firefly manual. BTW, I also added 150A fuses to each battery bank and 60A fuses at each output of the Sterling Pro Charge since the factory installation did not include these.
So far I have only three cycles on the new batteries, and so far everything is behaving as expected. One minor side annoyance: the Scheiber panel Engine battery over-voltage beeper keeps going off at 14.7V, which is a proper temperature compensated charge voltage, but I can't find where the voltage is measured. Anyone know? Have fun with your project! Interesting! The guys I spoke to said the firefly batteries don't need any different charging profile than regular AGM batteries. Are you saying the Cristec doesnt support AGM? Or do the Firefly batteries need something different than other AGMs? So we updated to Firefly batteries three years ago. Four house batteries and one for the engine. We also had to a new charger because the Cristec charger does do AGM but it doesn't do Firefly which have a very specific charging profile so we had to install a promariner charger. We did get $400 for the Cristec which otherwise worked fine. Highly recommend them so far. If you have any specific questions more than happy to answer them. We do need a proper alternator regulator and it is on the list. James
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Post by Maravilla on Mar 21, 2020 19:14:55 GMT
Thanks everyone. Looking at replacing the Cristec possibly. It does seem close to matching the battery profile, but at these prices I want to manage the full life of the batteries.
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Post by Maravilla on Mar 21, 2020 21:09:11 GMT
I am looking at the Mastervolt ChargeMaster Plus 12/100-3 CZone. You guys are so helpful, what do you think of it? The guy I am working with said you also want a higher amperage output because the Firefly batteries like a higher charge rate, hence the upgrade to the 100A charger.
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Post by sunrise4 on Mar 22, 2020 0:18:42 GMT
I'm not familiar with the Mastervolt, but in regards to output sizing, for my 4 parallel Firefly G31 setup the Firefly tech support recommended the Sterling Pro Charge 50A model even though there is also a 60A model, commenting that it was not needed to go to the 60A model. Maybe best to call them to inquire about your specific setup. Cheers!
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Post by vasko on Mar 22, 2020 8:24:19 GMT
As a rule of thumbs your charger/alternator should be between 10% and 30% of the total battery banks capacities on the boat
Do not forget that the trick is not have big battery bank where you store the energy but instead to generate the energy when you need it.
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Post by moonshadow on Mar 22, 2020 12:30:32 GMT
My bank of five G31 firefly batteries will accept a lot more charging current than my two Cristec chargers can supply. I left them in “winterizing” mode for a while since this provided the lower float voltage that the fireflies prefer. Now I have more solar installed and this keeps the batteries topped up well at the dock when usual electric devices in use. The engine alternator delivers >125 amps when running and the batteries are low enough to accept that. My solution to the Cristec programming issue is to keep it turned off most of the time. I returned it to best setting with “Boost” turned on and just turn them off once float is reached. Since there is no problem with PSOC this seems to work well. I have looked at bigger chargers but for now I think the engine running or the Cristec occasionally will provide the fast charge needed and let solar do most of the work.
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Post by zaphod on Jul 4, 2020 7:23:57 GMT
So after installing a battery monitor and discovering and correcting some rather interesting wiring on my battery bank I have decided it is time to replace the batteries. They were installed by the PO in 2016, but they are cheap "maintenance free" FLA batteries that likely aren't even true deep cycle. The other thing that playing with the battery monitor revealed is the shortcomings of my Cristec 40a charger. I did not realize that in "Boost" mode the charger will only run bulk and absorption modes for 4 hrs before dropping down to float regardless of whether the bank was fully charged. That might be ok for a couple of batteries, but for a bank of 5 FLA batteries that hardly seems sufficient. I suspect my batteries were in a partial state of charge for long periods of time which is murder on flooded cells.
So now I have ordered 4 Fireflys and I want to upgrade my charger. The guy selling me the batteries has said that I should have an 80a charger for this size bank. That seems pretty big to me. It is interesting that Sunrise4 was told by Firefly tech support that 50a was sufficient.
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Post by Maravilla on Jul 4, 2020 11:59:42 GMT
We hired OceanPlanet Energy to help with design considerations focused on battery bank, solar, alternator, and dockside charger. In the end we went with FireFly for capacity, life, recharge speed, etc. very happy with them so far. We chose solar as the primary charge system with 500W total installed (VERY happy with performance so far). We upgraded alternator and external regulator/controller because the batteries like an occasional hard charge. Dockside charging became less important. We went with a 60A Sterling unit because it is programmable to match the FireFly batteries (Cristec does not match the float needs). The important thing if you go with FireFly is to match your charging systems to the parameters that get you the full value from that investment. The batteries provide a LARGE improvement from FLA batteries especially in capacity and lifetime, but to get that full gain you have to operate them properly. It is less of a total system investment than going to lithium though.
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Post by zaphod on Jul 4, 2020 16:13:46 GMT
Yes I agree that we want to get the most out of these batteries, unfortunately I do not have the funds to do it all at once. Currently we spend a lot of time at outstations where we have shore power, or weekends off grid, with a couple of weeks every summer where we could be off grid for longer periods. After I retire in a few years our usage will change and we expect to be spending a month or more at a time on the boat. The goal is to be self sufficient on power by then, in the meantime the most important thing is to make sure I treat these batteries well and don't do anything to decrease their lifespan.
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Post by sunrise4 on Jul 9, 2020 17:18:33 GMT
zaphod - re 50A shore power charger, this has been working great for our four G31 Firefly battery bank, although we only use it at our home port and don't depend on it for a full recharge overnight when we are out cruising, although I think that should work fine as I see the batteries absorbing 30-50amps for a long time when motoring and charging off the alternator. Assuming a discharge of 200 Ah (roughly 50%), and assuming an 80-90% charge efficiency (conservative?), the shore power charger would have to pump in the order of 220-250 Ah into the batteries over a 12 hour time period (overnight stay at a dock), so on average about 20 amps, which I think is certainly possible with a 50amp charger.
One caution from my learning with these batteries, the alternator can get really HOT!!! We have the original Valeo 125amp alternator with a Balmar ARS-5 alternator controller. The ARS-5 monitors both the battery and alternator temperature and adjusts the alternator field current accordingly. I've seen no issues with the battery temperature (usually in the range of 16-24 deg C). However, different story with the alternator. The Balmar factory default for the max alternator temperature is 108 deg C, but I adjusted this setting down to 90 deg C as the default seemed really hot to me. At 50-60amp out of the alternator for even 20min or so raises the alternator temperature quickly and reaches 90 deg C, at which point the controller tries to reduce the current output to reduce the alternator temperature. From my experience, this works for a short time (minutes) after which the current gets adjusted up again and the temperature reaches the 90 deg C threshold again (and the alarm buzzer goes off again...).
I spoke with tech support at Balmar (Timm) about this and his suggestion was to increase airflow over the alternator to lower the temperature as the alternator under 'normal' conditions should not reach even the 90 deg C range. So I have been experimenting with different solutions. First I drilled a series of holes in the ABS cover in front of the alternator (Yanmar 4JH45 engine) to provide more air flow through the alternator. This helped some, but eventually the alternator temperature still reached the 90 deg C level. Interestingly, when I removed the engine side access cover (alternator side) to provide more air flow or heat escape and running the engine at 900-1000 RPM (at anchor...) producing 40-65 amps output, the alternator and controller had no problems maintaining the alternator temperature at or below 80 deg C. Seeing this I installed a second engine compartment exhaust fan - problem solved! (although I'm still experimenting with the best way to do this). Lesson learned: watch your alternator temperature with these batteries as they can absorb a lot of current for a long time (which is not the case with FLA batteries).
Anyone experiencing the same? Solutions?
Cheers!
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Post by zaphod on Jul 9, 2020 21:11:15 GMT
zaphod - re 50A shore power charger, this has been working great for our four G31 Firefly battery bank, although we only use it at our home port and don't depend on it for a full recharge overnight when we are out cruising, although I think that should work fine as I see the batteries absorbing 30-50amps for a long time when motoring and charging off the alternator. Assuming a discharge of 200 Ah (roughly 50%), and assuming an 80-90% charge efficiency (conservative?), the shore power charger would have to pump in the order of 220-250 Ah into the batteries over a 12 hour time period (overnight stay at a dock), so on average about 20 amps, which I think is certainly possible with a 50amp charger.
One caution from my learning with these batteries, the alternator can get really HOT!!! We have the original Valeo 125amp alternator with a Balmar ARS-5 alternator controller. The ARS-5 monitors both the battery and alternator temperature and adjusts the alternator field current accordingly. I've seen no issues with the battery temperature (usually in the range of 16-24 deg C). However, different story with the alternator. The Balmar factory default for the max alternator temperature is 108 deg C, but I adjusted this setting down to 90 deg C as the default seemed really hot to me. At 50-60amp out of the alternator for even 20min or so raises the alternator temperature quickly and reaches 90 deg C, at which point the controller tries to reduce the current output to reduce the alternator temperature. From my experience, this works for a short time (minutes) after which the current gets adjusted up again and the temperature reaches the 90 deg C threshold again (and the alarm buzzer goes off again...).
I spoke with tech support at Balmar (Timm) about this and his suggestion was to increase airflow over the alternator to lower the temperature as the alternator under 'normal' conditions should not reach even the 90 deg C range. So I have been experimenting with different solutions. First I drilled a series of holes in the ABS cover in front of the alternator (Yanmar 4JH45 engine) to provide more air flow through the alternator. This helped some, but eventually the alternator temperature still reached the 90 deg C level. Interestingly, when I removed the engine side access cover (alternator side) to provide more air flow or heat escape and running the engine at 900-1000 RPM (at anchor...) producing 40-65 amps output, the alternator and controller had no problems maintaining the alternator temperature at or below 80 deg C. Seeing this I installed a second engine compartment exhaust fan - problem solved! (although I'm still experimenting with the best way to do this). Lesson learned: watch your alternator temperature with these batteries as they can absorb a lot of current for a long time (which is not the case with FLA batteries).
Anyone experiencing the same? Solutions?
Cheers!
It will be interesting to see how my stock Hitachi 80a alternator handles the new batteries. Hopefully it does ok. I just ordered a 160w flexible solar panel to go on our Dodger. Theoretically it should produce enough power to offset our fridge load, but we will see how that plays out in real life. I will be sizing my charge controller large enough so I can add another 300w or so down the road.
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Post by moonshadow on Dec 4, 2021 12:50:22 GMT
I thought it might be useful to add another update on my firefly bank. My system is 5 of the G31 116 amphour firefly batteries as a house bank. Engine and gen start batteries are still FLA and the Bow thruster is a bank of 4 AGMs rigged as two parallel set of two in series each for a 24 v thruster. Charging is via 2 Cristec 40 amp chargers when shore power or generator is running. Original Valeo 120 amp alternator with Balmar 614 regulator and temp probes on a battery and the alternator. And, about 400 watts of solar rigged through two mppt controllers. Currently I’m a month into my second long trip with this setup. This system is working well for me. I don’t tend to sit still more than a few days. So my solar during winter sun pattern keeps up pretty well with my needs. I see about 90-110 amphours going into the batteries from the solar. On decent sun days with fridge and freezer both running I lose a net of about 15-20% per day. My boat is fairly electrically a pig. Electric winches, lots of Nav displays, autopilot, microwave, inverter etc. My best guess is about 200 amphours/day isn’t rare. When I move around a bit I tend to run the engine for about an hour getting in and out of anchorages and this added will top off the batteries. After two of three days of no or little sun I will run the generator and hour or two and charge via the cristec chargers. Since I need to run my 120v Watermaker once in a while it all works well together. I’m happy that I don’t need to worry about hurting the batteries like I used to with FLA batteries. The fireflies to soak up a charge fairly fast. I do see a voltage drop when the batteries get down to 50-60% charge to about 12.3 volts. With my Boat’s limited quality wiring this does cause an occasional system drop below 12v when lots of electrical items are in use. Not often a big problem but something to be aware of. My general feeling about the batteries? A real improvement over FLA and less worry about partial SOC etc. Fast charging is a big plus. For my style of use which is a few months of anchoring with no shore power this is working well. I still don’t see where lithium batteries would be much better, and this system still seems a lot more simple to install and use. I’m certainly not an expert on lithium systems but my reading makes me think that they require more complex changes in charging. But as lithium get less pricey and fireflies get more expensive it might still be worth looking at next time. Paul
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Post by jy51 on Dec 4, 2021 14:21:52 GMT
I thought it might be useful to add another update on my firefly bank. My system is 5 of the G31 116 amphour firefly batteries as a house bank. Engine and gen start batteries are still FLA and the Bow thruster is a bank of 4 AGMs rigged as two parallel set of two in series each for a 24 v thruster. Charging is via 2 Cristec 40 amp chargers when shore power or generator is running. Original Valeo 120 amp alternator with Balmar 614 regulator and temp probes on a battery and the alternator. And, about 400 watts of solar rigged through two mppt controllers. Currently I’m a month into my second long trip with this setup. This system is working well for me. I don’t tend to sit still more than a few days. So my solar during winter sun pattern keeps up pretty well with my needs. I see about 90-110 amphours going into the batteries from the solar. On decent sun days with fridge and freezer both running I lose a net of about 15-20% per day. My boat is fairly electrically a pig. Electric winches, lots of Nav displays, autopilot, microwave, inverter etc. My best guess is about 200 amphours/day isn’t rare. When I move around a bit I tend to run the engine for about an hour getting in and out of anchorages and this added will top off the batteries. After two of three days of no or little sun I will run the generator and hour or two and charge via the cristec chargers. Since I need to run my 120v Watermaker once in a while it all works well together. I’m happy that I don’t need to worry about hurting the batteries like I used to with FLA batteries. The fireflies to soak up a charge fairly fast. I do see a voltage drop when the batteries get down to 50-60% charge to about 12.3 volts. With my Boat’s limited quality wiring this does cause an occasional system drop below 12v when lots of electrical items are in use. Not often a big problem but something to be aware of. My general feeling about the batteries? A real improvement over FLA and less worry about partial SOC etc. Fast charging is a big plus. For my style of use which is a few months of anchoring with no shore power this is working well. I still don’t see where lithium batteries would be much better, and this system still seems a lot more simple to install and use. I’m certainly not an expert on lithium systems but my reading makes me think that they require more complex changes in charging. But as lithium get less pricey and fireflies get more expensive it might still be worth looking at next time. Paul Hi Paul, interesting observations you make, however, be careful what you say about Lithium. I have only three 90 amp hour Lithium batteries as my domestic bank (not a lot) and one 240 Watt solar panel and like you have a very high demand for electricity. We have two Fridges, one freezer and electric toilets, we use an inverter to run our coffee machine and juicer every morning, we tend to leave our navigation instruments and VHF on and are very wasteful with lighting at night. Our boat also has electric bathing platform that we pull up at night. When anchored for an extended period we run our generator each morning for about one to one and a half hours each day, after that the solar just about maintains our fully charged battery bank until about six in the evening, after that we are running down the batteries. The following morning after breakfast we have about 60% in the batteries, but still maintaining over 13 volts. We like using the generator because it serves multiple purposes, it charges the batteries, heats our water and we use our desalinator, making 60 litres of fresh water per hour if the anchorage is suitable. Alternatively, if we are leaving the anchorage and motoring for a few hours, this will also fully charge our battery bank, we can also use our water maker on the 12 volt setting to make water. Our small bank of Lithium and the small amount of solar backed up by our generator or motor's alternator work very well for us. I believe if I doubled the solar, the generator would only be needed every other day.
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Post by zaphod on Dec 4, 2021 19:00:05 GMT
I thought it might be useful to add another update on my firefly bank. My system is 5 of the G31 116 amphour firefly batteries as a house bank. Engine and gen start batteries are still FLA and the Bow thruster is a bank of 4 AGMs rigged as two parallel set of two in series each for a 24 v thruster. Charging is via 2 Cristec 40 amp chargers when shore power or generator is running. Original Valeo 120 amp alternator with Balmar 614 regulator and temp probes on a battery and the alternator. And, about 400 watts of solar rigged through two mppt controllers. Currently I’m a month into my second long trip with this setup. This system is working well for me. I don’t tend to sit still more than a few days. So my solar during winter sun pattern keeps up pretty well with my needs. I see about 90-110 amphours going into the batteries from the solar. On decent sun days with fridge and freezer both running I lose a net of about 15-20% per day. My boat is fairly electrically a pig. Electric winches, lots of Nav displays, autopilot, microwave, inverter etc. My best guess is about 200 amphours/day isn’t rare. When I move around a bit I tend to run the engine for about an hour getting in and out of anchorages and this added will top off the batteries. After two of three days of no or little sun I will run the generator and hour or two and charge via the cristec chargers. Since I need to run my 120v Watermaker once in a while it all works well together. I’m happy that I don’t need to worry about hurting the batteries like I used to with FLA batteries. The fireflies to soak up a charge fairly fast. I do see a voltage drop when the batteries get down to 50-60% charge to about 12.3 volts. With my Boat’s limited quality wiring this does cause an occasional system drop below 12v when lots of electrical items are in use. Not often a big problem but something to be aware of. My general feeling about the batteries? A real improvement over FLA and less worry about partial SOC etc. Fast charging is a big plus. For my style of use which is a few months of anchoring with no shore power this is working well. I still don’t see where lithium batteries would be much better, and this system still seems a lot more simple to install and use. I’m certainly not an expert on lithium systems but my reading makes me think that they require more complex changes in charging. But as lithium get less pricey and fireflies get more expensive it might still be worth looking at next time. Paul Hi Paul, interesting observations you make, however, be careful what you say about Lithium. I have only three 90 amp hour Lithium batteries as my domestic bank (not a lot) and one 240 Watt solar panel and like you have a very high demand for electricity. We have two Fridges, one freezer and electric toilets, we use an inverter to run our coffee machine and juicer every morning, we tend to leave our navigation instruments and VHF on and are very wasteful with lighting at night. Our boat also has electric bathing platform that we pull up at night. When anchored for an extended period we run our generator each morning for about one to one and a half hours each day, after that the solar just about maintains our fully charged battery bank until about six in the evening, after that we are running down the batteries. The following morning after breakfast we have about 60% in the batteries, but still maintaining over 13 volts. We like using the generator because it serves multiple purposes, it charges the batteries, heats our water and we use our desalinator, making 60 litres of fresh water per hour if the anchorage is suitable. Alternatively, if we are leaving the anchorage and motoring for a few hours, this will also fully charge our battery bank, we can also use our water maker on the 12 volt setting to make water. Our small bank of Lithium and the small amount of solar backed up by our generator or motor's alternator work very well for us. I believe if I doubled the solar, the generator would only be needed every other day. I think what Moonshadow is saying is that Fireflys are the next best thing to Lithium, and are more of a drop-in solution. Converting to Lithium often requires charging system upgrades as well. For example the high acceptance rates of Lithium can easily burn out a stock internally regulated alternator. The cost per useable AH for Lithium is coming down, but at this point Fireflys are still a more cost effective solution in many situations. I am very happy with my Firefly bank, although I find the idea of adding a single Lithium battery to my system intriguing. In that system you take advantage of the high acceptance rates of the Lithium battery, and then use that battery to charge the main bank via a 12v-12v charger.
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Post by jy51 on Dec 5, 2021 9:03:22 GMT
Zaphod, I was replying to the comment made by Moon Shadow;
“I still don’t see where lithium batteries would be much better.”
My posting was to illustrate that there is a difference, and in my case, a much smaller bank of lithium batteries and solar panel produce similar results, and importantly, maintaining high voltage.
While larger banks of lithium and big solar arrays make a very substantial difference to on board energy management.
I do not disagree that Firefly or any other wet or gel battery can offer a suitable solution for on board energy needs if coupled with a balanced charging regime and if that what you have, I can understand you are content.
However, I do disagree that upgrading to Lithium can often result in having to instal new battery chargers, unless of course, you have a very old installation, as most manufacturers, have for some years now, manufactured chargers with lithium settings and most lithium batteries come with their own built in management system, so for many they can be almost a drop in solution.
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Post by zaphod on Dec 5, 2021 17:37:25 GMT
Zaphod, I was replying to the comment made by Moon Shadow; “I still don’t see where lithium batteries would be much better.” My posting was to illustrate that there is a difference, and in my case, a much smaller bank of lithium batteries and solar panel produce similar results, and importantly, maintaining high voltage. While larger banks of lithium and big solar arrays make a very substantial difference to on board energy management. I do not disagree that Firefly or any other wet or gel battery can offer a suitable solution for on board energy needs if coupled with a balanced charging regime and if that what you have, I can understand you are content. However, I do disagree that upgrading to Lithium can often result in having to instal new battery chargers, unless of course, you have a very old installation, as most manufacturers, have for some years now, manufactured chargers with lithium settings and most lithium batteries come with their own built in management system, so for many they can be almost a drop in solution. My boat was built in 2011 and came with a Cristec 40a charger. I am pretty sure it didn't have a dipswitch setting for Lithium. It was not a great charger, had had very basic charge profiles. It wasn't suitable for a large lead acid bank, let alone a lithium bank. My alternator is an 80a Hitachi internally regulated unit with no control over the charge profile. Because of the high acceptance rates of lithium batteries it could be putting out maximum amps for extended periods of time which would cause it to overheat and it has no thermal protection. Also, lithium battery management systems will sometimes shut off current flow to protect the battery. If that happens while an internally regulated alternator is charging the resulting load dump will burn out the diodes and destroy the alternator. It could also result in a power spike that could destroy any electronics that are connected to the circuit. That's why I don't think lithium is a drop-in solution. The term "drop-in" implies that the average boat owner could just pick up a bank of lithium batteries and bolt them in place if their lead acid bank and call it done. All I'm saying is that it often is not that simple.
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