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Post by teodoro on Feb 2, 2020 19:43:03 GMT
A bit of provoking thread.... as most of us wait for spring and for a chance to be back on water... but also a serious question from my side, as I start thinking about upgrading from my 36i (sooner or later) and I'm considering if I should stick with the new Jeanneau or better look elsewhere.
The question is mainly for the owners of the 410/440, as they've now been around for a couple of seasons and some of us have hopefully enjoyed many miles on the new boats. The marketing material and boat shows have definitely helped us to get the walkaround concept... as well as the nice interior, the wonderful cockpit, etc. But I'm wondering... what's wrong? What did you learn after using these boats? Every boat has annoying features, something lacking, something forgotten by the designers, performance issues, etc...
My concerns about these series - without ever sailing them - are around: - storage space below deck (the idea of not having high cupboard is marketed around weight... but we know it's all about construction cost, and this may limit space if you're using the boat for a cruise over 10 days - even more for a passage) - storage space on deck. My understanding is that on 410 you don't even have a locker where to put fenders, is this right? 440 is likely better - but the "tender garage" is clear not big enough to store a tender, right? - exposed lines on the coamings (on 410 only) - this look a bit dangerous in a family cruiser / short-handed easy sailing concept, as the lines are right where someone sitting in the cockpit would put their arms - bimini canvas: are the walkarounds significantly limiting the amount of cockpit coverage ? My umpression from videos is that they're much narrower than usual and this would mean more sunrays coming in - winch position: when you sail downwind with a gennaker / code 0.... the sheet lines are cutting across the walkarounds, correct? other than that.. is winch position comfortable for sailing? - single winch for main and genoa. I understand the easy sailing concept... but how do you gybe if you need to lock one line in the stopper? Is the only option bringing the main at the center before manouvering the genoa? - reverse bow: how is it performing in short / steep waves (as in Med)? Concerned about the boat getting too stiff in getting in / out of the waves
Any comments on these features? And even more important.. how's sailing performance in water? Are you happy about it?
Hope this can open up a nice discussion.... from my side no intent to criticize boats that I really like a lot....simply trying to build an objective assessments of pros and cons.
Thanks Teo
Ps the alternative I'm looking at is the latest Hanse series... 418/458... nice boats as well, similar in many concepts
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Post by MalcolmP on Feb 2, 2020 22:58:13 GMT
Very interesting probing questions, I for one will also be interested in real feedback from recent owners of these models.
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Post by jy51 on Feb 3, 2020 10:01:40 GMT
Teodoro, you aim your questions mainly at 410/440 owners yet suggest that you are looking to up grade to a boat that might not turn out to be a Jeanneau, so, are you simply looking for a personal review from current owners regarding the common design elements of this range or are you looking to judge the suitability of these modern concept changes for your own consumption?
If we are to offer input on the suitability of the current trend of yachts, I will start by dragging out a number of well worn maxims, “Every boat built is a compromise” and “One man’s meat is another man’s poison” and of course, probably the most significant, “You only get what you pay for”.
Having recently changed from owning and sailing a traditional style, hand built Swedish yacht to a modern concept design Jeanneau I believe I am suitably experienced to answer that question for my own needs and my own pocket.
I think the only way you can decide if this boats is for you, would be a test sail, and remember, a yacht is like a wife, you don't chose her only on her ability to cook or keep the house clean, there are other considerations, there's that initial gut feeling, if its not there don't bother. Yes I know its not very scientific, but when I go to a boat show and step foot on a yacht its either "love at first sight", "well I like it but" or I walk away disappointed.
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Post by teodoro on Feb 3, 2020 13:47:15 GMT
Thanks for your contribution - I fully agree there's a highly subjective element in choosing a boat (not to mention in letting your wife choose your boat within the short list you provided her... , still I'm trying to gather as many objective elements as possible to evaluate this generation of boats. Knowing very well that every boat design comes with compromises - and that we're not talking about unlimited budget design in this price range. I'm not finalizing any purchase anytime soon... simply looking around with curiosity and interest as always. Dreaming of what may come next, but likely a couple of years down the road. Just trying to capture the impressions and feelings of owners after a couple of seasons on the boat. Usually they're quite different from what you get "at first sight" in a boat show or in a test sailing - can be better but also significantly worse after a long cruising season. And trying to get answers to specific some questions that have been puzzling me around this "modern concepts"
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Post by Fabrice-Erta on Feb 3, 2020 19:47:37 GMT
....... My concerns about these series - without ever sailing them - are around: - storage space below deck (the idea of not having high cupboard is marketed around weight... but we know it's all about construction cost, and this may limit space if you're using the boat for a cruise over 10 days - even more for a passage) - storage space on deck. My understanding is that on 410 you don't even have a locker where to put fenders, is this right? 440 is likely better - but the "tender garage" is clear not big enough to store a tender, right? - exposed lines on the coamings (on 410 only) - this look a bit dangerous in a family cruiser / short-handed easy sailing concept, as the lines are right where someone sitting in the cockpit would put their arms - bimini canvas: are the walkarounds significantly limiting the amount of cockpit coverage ? My umpression from videos is that they're much narrower than usual and this would mean more sunrays coming in - winch position: when you sail downwind with a gennaker / code 0.... the sheet lines are cutting across the walkarounds, correct? other than that.. is winch position comfortable for sailing? - single winch for main and genoa. I understand the easy sailing concept... but how do you gybe if you need to lock one line in the stopper? Is the only option bringing the main at the center before manouvering the genoa? - reverse bow: how is it performing in short / steep waves (as in Med)? Concerned about the boat getting too stiff in getting in / out of the waves Hi teodoro: Surely not as experience as JY51 but as a recent owner of a SO440, I can update with my feedback. -Storage is clearly sufficent for a 10 days and more cruise. The wine cellar can not accept "rose de provence" but Bordeaux only .... I have to adjust it a little,, bottle size is not the same. - The tender garage is big enough to store : a code 0 , fenders, and a 3,5 people tender ( deflated :-)) . - I find the Bimini just perfect, can be adjusted and totally closed if required. You are able to remove partial parts as well. - Yes , in downwind with code 0 you need to be careful when going in front? I did not notice any convenient from winch position. - The single winch for main and genoa is not an issue as you can adjust / control the main from both side. You just need to anticipate a little. I never had to center the main when jibbing,, except when downwind... - Sailing in the south of France reverse bow looks fine, but this is very specific for everyone one ... Feel free to ask more !
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Post by JEF on Feb 4, 2020 12:41:05 GMT
2019 season one feedback SO 440 .... Deep keel / in mast furling / 3 cabin version normally sail skipper & one crew.
Long passage feedback ... We normally run with an offshore Cat 2 specified listing of cruising equipment + extra bits & fuel plus provissions + bbottled water we wish to carry... On the longer trips the listing is extensive but we find the storage area available not a problem. Yes we do not have an of excess of storage space and you have to plan what goes were and sensably use what available capacity you have ... but IMO this is not an issue it just takes pre passage planning.
The overall cockpit space available is large 14 ft helm to helm this is very wide .. With the full factory fit cockpit canopy up you still have inner width and space to seat six persons around the table in relative comfort. So for us the cockpit is massive and we spend probaly 80% of our time on board in this area alone ...sailing / eating or just relaxing ( drinking )
This latest series of Sun Odessey yachts with the walk around concept is for sure a design evolution and again for us this is making sailing easier and safer. The German main sheet system were both Main and Genoa come back to each helm inboard winch positions is easy to operate from high or low side and with the helms person seated outside it gives us a totally clear view and walkway forward.
After one full sailing season with extensive cruising around the North Sea and South coast areas we are still in love this SO440 yacht. Yes we are still learning about her sailing positives and negatives but to date bearing in mind this is a production yacht we have had very few negatives to complain about. We have had issues mainly in quality of fitment with cabin doors and some leaks in domestic water fitments but this has been very quickly and professionally sorted out by our local dealer Clarke & Carter ... Very important to have a dealer you can trust and values your brand loyalty these guys for us have delivered 120% service hence this is our 3rd Jeanneau yacht.
Disapointments ? ..No 1 well I can never understand why the manufacture leaves the detailed finial quality control of new yachts to the supplying dealers. The early quality issues we have experienced on our SO440 could have been spotted and sorted befor it ever left the factory but no it was spotted at the dealership with me the customer in attendance. Yes they got sorted but after delivery.
Specification mistakes ? .. This is the first yacht we have purchased with main Inmast reefing .. Not a question about the ease of reefing more about a light wind performance ? as you loose 10sq meters of sail main sail area Inmast over slab reefing. I did question this with Elvstrom who advised us to gain all wind sailing experience first before investing in any specialist sails to fill the expected performance gaps beating in mind we are a cruisers not racers .The jury is still out on this question can only say we have had some cracking sails to date with this latest PB fully chined hull with twin rudders set up. Looking forward to the new sailing season hope our comments are useful.
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Post by jy51 on Feb 8, 2020 18:44:10 GMT
....... My concerns about these series - without ever sailing them - are around: - storage space below deck (the idea of not having high cupboard is marketed around weight... but we know it's all about construction cost, and this may limit space if you're using the boat for a cruise over 10 days - even more for a passage) - storage space on deck. My understanding is that on 410 you don't even have a locker where to put fenders, is this right? 440 is likely better - but the "tender garage" is clear not big enough to store a tender, right? - exposed lines on the coamings (on 410 only) - this look a bit dangerous in a family cruiser / short-handed easy sailing concept, as the lines are right where someone sitting in the cockpit would put their arms - bimini canvas: are the walkarounds significantly limiting the amount of cockpit coverage ? My umpression from videos is that they're much narrower than usual and this would mean more sunrays coming in - winch position: when you sail downwind with a gennaker / code 0.... the sheet lines are cutting across the walkarounds, correct? other than that.. is winch position comfortable for sailing? - single winch for main and genoa. I understand the easy sailing concept... but how do you gybe if you need to lock one line in the stopper? Is the only option bringing the main at the center before manouvering the genoa? - reverse bow: how is it performing in short / steep waves (as in Med)? Concerned about the boat getting too stiff in getting in / out of the waves Hi teodoro: Surely not as experience as JY51 but as a recent owner of a SO440, I can update with my feedback. -Storage is clearly sufficent for a 10 days and more cruise. The wine cellar can not accept "rose de provence" but Bordeaux only .... I have to adjust it a little,, bottle size is not the same. - The tender garage is big enough to store : a code 0 , fenders, and a 3,5 people tender ( deflated :-)) . - I find the Bimini just perfect, can be adjusted and totally closed if required. You are able to remove partial parts as well. - Yes , in downwind with code 0 you need to be careful when going in front? I did not notice any convenient from winch position. - The single winch for main and genoa is not an issue as you can adjust / control the main from both side. You just need to anticipate a little. I never had to center the main when jibbing,, except when downwind... - Sailing in the south of France reverse bow looks fine, but this is very specific for everyone one ... Feel free to ask more ! Fabrice-Erta, »pauvre petit » I’m fully in agreement with your gripes over the wine cellars inability to hold « Rosé de Provence » a great oversight by Jeanneau. Don’t they realise that all south of France sailors chill out on a summers day with a cold bottle of rosé. Drinking a Bordeaux with a Bouillabaisse is not acceptable, even for the English. My solution to store the larger bottles, like the crémants and magnum bottles of Champagne was to order the boat with a third fridge in the utility room with top opening. Unfortunately my budget just didn’t stretch to the wine cooler option.
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Post by teodoro on Feb 9, 2020 18:48:23 GMT
Thanks everyone for the great comments and insights, really appreciated! And great to hear you're both happy with the new boat without major complaints! Actually - ehm.. Fabrice, I'm also astonished by the Rosè issue!!! Not expected from Jeanneau and this can be extremely serious.... I also sail in South of France and can fully understand how serious such a problem can be!!! Ok, I'll keep my 36i with the bottles stored vertically under the benches in the dinette... much better!!
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Post by Fabrice-Erta on Feb 10, 2020 12:59:08 GMT
jy51 : for sure bordeaux with bouillabaisse is not the best but in white we could find some arrangements. teodoro : I will post some picture of the adjustments when done ... BTW where do you sail in south ? Fabrice
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Post by teodoro on Feb 11, 2020 10:14:31 GMT
fabrice my home port is Menton, so mostly between Menton and Cannes / Lerins over the weekends. Porquerolles and up to Marseille for longer weekends (I've been to the Les Issambres marina as well once!) - and then Corsica / Sardinia over the summer. Pas mal.... even if I sometimes miss the Greece breeze where I spent so many summers when chartering
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