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Post by jy51 on Mar 22, 2019 9:52:49 GMT
Obviously this forum is not a soap box for political views, however, which ever way you look at it Brexit will have a profound effect on every British passport holder who keeps a boat in the Mediterranean and visits frequently, or anyone who has the habit of spending months on end each year, living on their boat and cruising the EU mediterranean Countries.
A previous thread has outlined the Schengen Agreement and how it will impact future movement of British non EU passport holders.
People will have to learn to adapt, some retirees like myself will take up foreign residency to maintain some of that freedom we have benefited from for so many years. Others will have to spend 90 days in every 180 days in none EU ports before returning, there will be those that simply take the risk until found out and those that will have to change their sailing habits to fall in line with the rules and lastly some will find it all to much, and sadly will have to return to UK waters if they wish to continue sailing.
The unknown factor for red ensign flyers is the toxic fall out. If Brexit goes bad for Europe how will Europeans regard the Brits, will we become the most dislikes Nation in Europe, I’m sure we are not the most loved at the moment but after Brexit things could get a lot worse. Imagine if every Spanish, French, Italian and Greek customs boat singled you out, time and time again to check everything from flares to liferaft and entry and exit dates, it could become a nightmare.
Just an observation, but I have met and socialised with many Israelis whilst cruising and not one ever flew an Israeli ensign preferring to fly the stars and stripes, make of it what you will, but will us Brits find life easier in the future to reregister and fly another Country's EU ensign. I know there are many Spanish who register their boats in Holland to get around the tax and red tape involved in Spanish registration.
Do you think I am worrying too much? How easy is it to obtain a ships registration in a European Country and how would one go about it, which would be the best Country with the least regulations. What are the legal implications? What about boat insurance, will it be valid or will in the event of a claim the precarious nature of a UK resident registering his boat through some letterbox company in Amsterdam stand up to scrutiny.
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Post by MickeyB on Mar 22, 2019 10:15:45 GMT
Hey all,
Alfred Caruana is a local agent here in Malta. I bought my boat from him 6 years ago and honestly - he is a good guy.
He deals with flagging MALTESE yachts, and he costs approx 50euro to do the leg work (rough figure - don't hold me to it). If anyone wants to register their yachts please give him a bell.
His number is (+356) 9986 9621.
Please share to anyone who is thinking of this - he is honest and will tell you all you need to know. I gain nothing from this, just putting it out there.
Mike
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Post by johannes on Mar 22, 2019 10:21:40 GMT
I'm sure Europeans won't dislike Brits after Brexit. We are well aware that almost half of the Brits voted to stay. I think many Europeans just consider the whole thing sad and tragic.
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Post by jy51 on Mar 22, 2019 10:30:16 GMT
I'm sure Europeans won't dislike Brits after Brexit. We are well aware that almost half of the Brits voted to stay. I think many Europeans just consider the whole thing sad and tragic. Thank you for those kind words but, from your previous postings I would judge you as a rational thinking man, unfortunately not everyone is like you, the world is full of bigots.
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Post by jy51 on Mar 22, 2019 10:34:45 GMT
Hey all, Alfred Caruana is a local agent here in Malta. I bought my boat from him 6 years ago and honestly - he is a good guy. He deals with flagging MALTESE yachts, and he costs approx 50euro to do the leg work (rough figure - don't hold me to it). If anyone wants to register their yachts please give him a bell. His number is (+356) 9986 9621. Please share to anyone who is thinking of this - he is honest and will tell you all you need to know. I gain nothing from this, just putting it out there. Mike Thanks Mickey, Malta is definitely one to look into, the only down side I can see is that they are not in the EU and might also come under scrutiny by vigilant customs, something I obviously have no knowledge of.
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Post by MickeyB on Mar 22, 2019 10:41:18 GMT
They most certainly are in the EU!
I think you must have read an old website there - as Malta has been in it for over 10 years.
Mike
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Post by jy51 on Mar 22, 2019 10:46:13 GMT
They most certainly are in the EU! I think you must have read an old website there - as Malta has been in it for over 10 years. Mike Well there you go Micky, I'm not perfect, I've just been show up as an ignoranious, (yes I know there is no such word) SORRY!!!!!!!
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Post by MickeyB on Mar 22, 2019 12:03:00 GMT
And now I have learned something as well...ignoranious is not a word even though I use it often :-)
Never stop learning!
Mike
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Post by hoppy on Mar 22, 2019 13:54:23 GMT
They most certainly are in the EU! I think you must have read an old website there - as Malta has been in it for over 10 years. Mike Well there you go Micky, I'm not perfect, I've just been show up as an ignoranious, (yes I know there is no such word) SORRY!!!!!!! If it's spelt as ignoramus, then it is a word en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ignoramusI suspect that with or without Brexit, you will be the most disliked by some EU nations and loved by others, just as you already are now. As for customs and flags, at worst you will probably be treated the same as any other non-EU boat and the nightmare will be that you are not used to the procedures for non-eu vessels. On page 2 Malcolm posted about the vat status and it does not look like that will be an issue for British flagged vessels. I'm not sure what your obligations are if you sail between 2 EU countries on an EU flagged when you don't have an EU passport. If you still have to jump through hoops, it may not be worth changing the flag. You might want to consider whether you are ever likely to bring the boat back to UK waters before changing the flag.
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Post by jy51 on Mar 22, 2019 14:48:15 GMT
hoppy, your deep knowledge of information astounds me! First I get it wrong that Malta is in the EU, then I spell ignoramus wrong and to make myself look even more stupid I even suggest the word doesn't exist, It seems I'm thinking and writing in drive with my brain and mouth still in neutral. Not uncommon, my wife says! I think I need to get back to talking about boats, maybe a drink or two will help!
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Post by ianpowolny on Mar 22, 2019 15:06:24 GMT
It's interesting to read the Cruising Association's document here: www.theca.org.uk/news/rats/considerations_if_no_deal_brexit_070119. I had lunch the other day with MalcolmP and he tells me the CA are advising if your boat is in Europe when the UK leaves the EU it's best to leave it there. So with that advise we will have Affinity in NW Spain as we leave. It's always interesting to follow chuckr story about their travels around the Med. They seem to be in the EU for longer than 90 days in 180. Do US citizens have a special dispensation? Maybe Chuck and Patti can comment. Nice lunch BTW. Eileen is a very good cook. Just in case any of you get an invite. Ian
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Post by jy51 on Mar 22, 2019 15:39:03 GMT
Ian the C A information is fine but doesn't seem to have been updated to show the latest visa free access which has been passed by Brussels.
Regarding access, I think we have to be careful about talking of individual cases, 8 years ago I meet an American and his wife in Portugal who had been living on their boat in a marina for over 4 years until someone from the customs caught up with them and insisted they leave immediately.
Individuals will probably sail around the Mediterranean for years before they are stopped and found out. The obvious problem is at boarder controls, were passports are always checked.
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Post by alenka on Mar 22, 2019 15:50:04 GMT
I gather the Spanish have already said that nothing much will change. Around 360,000 Brits own property there and they say it can rise to 400,000 without giving any cause for concern.
The Greeks welcome anybody with cash with open arms. Well that might not be 100% accurate. I was mistaken a few years ago for being German and I got no table service from the waiters - I had to fetch my own drinks from the bar!
I think the Dutch and a few other countries are tightening up on flagging rules and now require a residential address to qualify. Many Greeks and a few Swiss seem to fly the Ensign or the Stars and Stripes in my part of the woods.
As others have stated an awful lot of Australian, Kiwi and Americans seem to spend more than 90 days in the Med. Some head to Greece just to get a visa but others seem to come and go as they please.
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Post by jy51 on Mar 23, 2019 8:10:31 GMT
I gather the Spanish have already said that nothing much will change. Around 360,000 Brits own property there and they say it can rise to 400,000 without giving any cause for concern. The Greeks welcome anybody with cash with open arms. Well that might not be 100% accurate. I was mistaken a few years ago for being German and I got no table service from the waiters - I had to fetch my own drinks from the bar! I think the Dutch and a few other countries are tightening up on flagging rules and now require a residential address to qualify. Many Greeks and a few Swiss seem to fly the Ensign or the Stars and Stripes in my part of the woods. As others have stated an awful lot of Australian, Kiwi and Americans seem to spend more than 90 days in the Med. Some head to Greece just to get a visa but others seem to come and go as they please. alenka, sorry to be a little pedantic, but what do you mean by saying the Spanish have said nothing much will change. They are a member of the Schengen Region, and as so, must abide by its rules. After Brexit and losing EU passport status a lot will change! If you are still in that camp of "lets wait and see", I would recommend you read up on non EU status on the European Commissions wed site. Spain and Greece might be very keen to maintain their holiday economy but once that computerised system ETIAS is up and running in 2020 they will have no choice but to follow the rules unless of course Teresa May changes her red lines and we leave with a free movement deal. Implying that Australian, Kiwi and American sailors who flaunt the rules and sail around the Mediterranean without being caught means that nothing will change is like saying there are many people driving without a driving licence and insurance who never get stopped so it must be OK. Of course we will all try and bend the rules a little and find ways to continue as before, but at some point you have to face the reality that as non EU members, British passport holders will have limited access to the whole of Europe.
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Post by alenka on Mar 23, 2019 9:03:57 GMT
I have no doubt lots of things will change.
Having just got back from a stay in Duquesa Marina I did not see many of the ex-pat Brits or live aboard getting worried. I was merely para-phrasing what I have been told.
There are some countries that notoriously ignore EU directives when their income is threatened. Just how it all plays out is not in our hands.
As others have gently suggested this forum is about flat batteries and keel bolts this thread seems to be getting more and more political!
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Post by hoppy on Mar 23, 2019 10:31:49 GMT
As others have gently suggested this forum is about flat batteries and keel bolts this thread seems to be getting more and more political! Given that clearing in and out of countries, rules within the EU are important parts of sailing for some, it seems reasonable to discuss aspects of Brexit. Discussing May, the politics around Brexit and everybody's favourite political topic, Trump, should be taken elsewhere. Many Aussies & Kiwis have dual citizenship, so it's not a surprise there are plenty cruising around for extended periods. I guess a few play with the rules as well.
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Post by snwl on Mar 23, 2019 12:14:31 GMT
The French EU minister, Nathalie Loiseau, has called her new cat Brexit. “He wakes me up every morning meowing to death because he wants to go out,” she says. “And then when I open the door he stays put, undecided, and then glares at me when I put him out.”
A joke, a joke. I could not hold on. Come on guys. Always look at the bright side of life. :-) :-) :-)
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sailingabsea
Junior Member
Cruising the Mediterranean
Posts: 16
Jeanneau Model: Sun Odyssey 45.1
Yacht Name: A B Sea
Home Port: Wherever we drop anchor
Country: Australia/UK
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sailingabsea/
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Post by sailingabsea on Mar 23, 2019 13:33:22 GMT
Here's a theoretical scenario for the forum.
We have dual citizenship, UK and Australian.
And we'd really like to spend the 5 months of winter in a certain spot in Greece.
With the 90 days in 180 days rule applying once Brexit happens can we use our dual passports to our advantage.
For example enter Greece on our UK passports on October 15th then exit on UK passports on January 15th to sail to Albania for a couple of nights.
Then return to Greece and enter on our Aussie passports for a further 90 days stay.
Gotta think outside the box.
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Post by fakinx on Mar 23, 2019 13:51:00 GMT
Good one. Some people already got all in place, some will very soon and some, majority sadly, will get cooked and served. It’s life.
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Post by MalcolmP on Mar 23, 2019 13:52:11 GMT
It's interesting to read the Cruising Association's document here: www.theca.org.uk/news/rats/considerations_if_no_deal_brexit_070119. I had lunch the other day with MalcolmP and he tells me the CA are advising if your boat is in Europe when the UK leaves the EU it's best to leave it there. So with that advise we will have Affinity in NW Spain as we leave. It's always interesting to follow chuckr story about their travels around the Med. They seem to be in the EU for longer than 90 days in 180. Do US citizens have a special dispensation? Maybe Chuck and Patti can comment. Nice lunch BTW. Eileen is a very good cook. Just in case any of you get an invite. Ian Thanks Ian is was great to catch up with you both. We always enjoy intelligent and appreciative company whether afloat or ashore
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Post by jy51 on Mar 23, 2019 13:55:41 GMT
I have no doubt lots of things will change. Having just got back from a stay in Duquesa Marina I did not see many of the ex-pat Brits or live aboard getting worried. I was merely para-phrasing what I have been told. There are some countries that notoriously ignore EU directives when their income is threatened. Just how it all plays out is not in our hands. As others have gently suggested this forum is about flat batteries and keel bolts this thread seems to be getting more and more political! alenka, I am sorry, but I must side with hoppy on this one. Yes I have clearly stated we don’t wish to get into any political arguments and opinions on this forum. But we are not talking politics we are discussing the outcome of a political action that effects many if not all British passport holders that sail in the Mediterranean. Certainly a relevant subject to a sailing cruising blog. Everyone is welcome to their political views and opinions, but that is not what we are discussing, we are talking about facts, not hopes and aspirations. The only unknown, is if article 50 is revoked and we don’t leave the EU and therefore everything we have discussed becomes irrelevant. However, like a good sailor I like to make passage plans. Implying EU Countries would or could ignore EU directives is a hope and possible a belief but it is not a fact. Reporting that berth holders are not concerned is irrelevant, as each is free to ignore facts in favour of their personal hopes and beliefs. The fact is that, post Brexit, if nothing changes, British passport holders lose EU citizenship and have already been granted a visa free access under the Schengen rule 90/180 its that simple. That is not open to debate there is a Brussels directive paper available for everyone to see. We have to accept it and plan for the inevitable, to keep ignoring the facts in favour of ”we don’t know and something will turn up” is at the least bad planning and at the worst absurd.
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Post by jy51 on Mar 23, 2019 14:03:18 GMT
Here's a theoretical scenario for the forum.
We have dual citizenship, UK and Australian.
And we'd really like to spend the 5 months of winter in a certain spot in Greece.
With the 90 days in 180 days rule applying once Brexit happens can we use our dual passports to our advantage.
For example enter Greece on our UK passports on October 15th then exit on UK passports on January 15th to sail to Albania for a couple of nights.
Then return to Greece and enter on our Aussie passports for a further 90 days stay.
Gotta think outside the box.
Good thinking, but I don't think that is possible as they state quite clearly you must enter and leave on one but not both passports with date stamps, if you read the Schengen rules I think they have definitely covered that one. However, anything is worth a try and the age old say, "yer not guilty, till yer caught." So if you don't enter marinas and use anchorages you might never get stopped, also worth a try.
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Post by MalcolmP on Mar 23, 2019 14:27:29 GMT
Obviously this forum is not a soap box for political views, however, which ever way you look at it Brexit will have a profound effect on every British passport holder who keeps a boat in the Mediterranean and visits frequently, or anyone who has the habit of spending months on end each year, living on their boat and cruising the EU mediterranean Countries. A previous thread has outlined the Schengen Agreement and how it will impact future movement of British non EU passport holders. People will have to learn to adapt, some retirees like myself will take up foreign residency to maintain some of that freedom we have benefited from for so many years. Others will have to spend 90 days in every 180 days in none EU ports before returning, there will be those that simply take the risk until found out and those that will have to change their sailing habits to fall in line with the rules and lastly some will find it all to much, and sadly will have to return to UK waters if they wish to continue sailing. The unknown factor for red ensign flyers is the toxic fall out. If Brexit goes bad for Europe how will Europeans regard the Brits, will we become the most dislikes Nation in Europe, I’m sure we are not the most loved at the moment but after Brexit things could get a lot worse. Imagine if every Spanish, French, Italian and Greek customs boat singled you out, time and time again to check everything from flares to liferaft and entry and exit dates, it could become a nightmare. Just an observation, but I have met and socialised with many Israelis whilst cruising and not one ever flew an Israeli ensign preferring to fly the stars and stripes, make of it what you will, but will us Brits find life easier in the future to reregister and fly another Country's EU ensign. I know there are many Spanish who register their boats in Holland to get around the tax and red tape involved in Spanish registration. Do you think I am worrying too much? How easy is it to obtain a ships registration in a European Country and how would one go about it, which would be the best Country with the least regulations. What are the legal implications? What about boat insurance, will it be valid or will in the event of a claim the precarious nature of a UK resident registering his boat through some letterbox company in Amsterdam stand up to scrutiny. The rules seem to been changing/have changed about flagging status, at least when using the ICA - International Certificate for Pleasure Craft, which is often used as the simplest form of registration/ proof of ownership. I have read this maybe in part a result of some Dutch flagged vessels that a humanitarian organisation had used to rescue Refugees trying to cross the Med. Until recently Belgium used to be the preferred "flag of convenience" for many Spanish yachts wanting to avoid the inspection and equipment requirements, but I have been told that Belgian registration is no longer as liberal and things like evidence of Belgian address is now required. As some will know we reflagged as Swedish a couple of years ago, which was very simple and cheap as we are under 12m, However I have not subsequently been able to navigate the process of gaining a Swedish call sign and MMSI. So am now going to change back to SSR, especially as it now seems should be OK on the VAT front as boat is currently in Spain and will be there if and when Brexit ever happens. Overall was not a waste as we met lots and lots of very friendly Swedes, who we had to explain we were not what we seemed... Also a recent enquiry by another forum member to The Swedish Cruising Association SXK who issued our ICP was that it did not grant rights to fly the Swedish Ensign, only your own nationality.. which like sailingabsea is potentially confusing as that we have a choice of British / Australian/ Irish. Maybe we should simply create our own mixed ensign along the lines of the Celtic nations...
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Post by jy51 on Mar 23, 2019 14:38:27 GMT
Can we not, just all be one nation of sailors and cruisers, all with this one ensign, sign me up please Malcolm!
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Post by jy51 on Mar 23, 2019 14:45:21 GMT
The French EU minister, Nathalie Loiseau, has called her new cat Brexit. “He wakes me up every morning meowing to death because he wants to go out,” she says. “And then when I open the door he stays put, undecided, and then glares at me when I put him out.”
A joke, a joke. I could not hold on. Come on guys. Always look at the bright side of life. :-) :-) :-)
Saw this on French TV, very, very funny. Totally agree, and hopefully some of us are looking on the bright side, I am sitting in the sun on my new boat planning my summer cruise having organised my EU residency and partial freedom of movement, couldn't be more happy!
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