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Post by jcoughlin on Sept 10, 2018 11:46:07 GMT
Hello, this is my first season with my SO37 (5’5” keel), I’m no stranger to the Jeanneau brand as this is my third Jeanneau. I’m surprised how poorly the boat does upwind, the best we can manage is to sail around 50 degrees to the apparent wind, I’ve got max headstay tension with the turnbuckle only adjustment ( adjustable next season, along with new jib). The usual wind speed in my area (Maine), is around 10 true. I get a significant amount of sideways slippage when we press the boat, I’m guessing the shallow draft keep just doesn’t have enough draft to hold the boat on course, our off wind speed under spinnaker is great. What I gain on the spinnaker I lose on the upwind legs, as all the other boats are sailing 15 degrees closer to the wind! The regional PHRF rating we sail under is 144/159 .
Any ideas on how to better the upwind performance ??
Thanks Jim
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Post by jdl01 on Sept 10, 2018 16:58:30 GMT
Hi Jim,
Genoa car location/sheeting angle is the first place I would look for improvements in upwind performance. Second would be the amount of forestay sag. Third would be mainsail oversheeting. A less than smooth, clean bottom can also be a problem - no foil lift from the keel if it is misshapen by heavy growth. Then we get into the money stuff - what was the quality of your genoa when new and what condition is it in now - bagged out, stretched leech. Also, how much weather helm do you have beating? If it is only a couple of degrees, you may want to add more mast rake. I'm sure Marty will also add lots of advice on this pointing topic.
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Post by jcoughlin on Sept 10, 2018 17:23:44 GMT
Thanks
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Post by jcoughlin on Sept 10, 2018 17:31:55 GMT
A couple of notes regarding my original post.
clean bottom, new main, old Genoa, original crappy cabin top traveler.
The boat seems to me to be “tender” compared to many of my previous boats. In an effort to depower and still point I dropped the traveler, eased off the main sheet (to depower), then added max Vang trying to get the top of the main to help point ( seemed to help some).
I plan on converting to an adjustable backstay and new Genoa next season.
This is my 7th of 11 bigger sailboats and is the poorest pointing of all my boats, I sure hope I can get it sail closer to the wind (35-40 degrees apparent) next season.
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Post by sitara on Sept 10, 2018 22:00:13 GMT
The best thing I did for pointing on my 36i was to add a feathering propeller. With the old fixed prop most of the fleet could oit point me, with the new prop we were up there with them.
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Post by petermc on Sept 11, 2018 13:15:06 GMT
I have a Sunfast 37, same hull but slightly bigger rig and deeper keel
Here are a couple of my thoughts:
1 I routinely point about 5 deg higher than a SO37 that I have raced against. We both carry the same headsail sizing so the different keels clearly make a difference.
2 with the SO/SF 37 hulls its all about the headsail driving to windward. I know with my No2 headsail which is about a 125%, the Genoa cars are about mid track and geometrically the farthest away from the main increasing the slot size and reducing the efficiency of the main. With my 150 and 165% headsails which have the Genoa cars right back aft the slot is much tighter and I point much higher
3 with my no3 100% headsail, it uses separate tracks closer to the mast. Again I point much higher than even with my 150 and 165% headsails, so its all about the slot between the headsail and main
So my suggestion is to consider the sizing of your headsail and if it’s less than a 150% then I would consider using tweakers (inhaulers) to reduce the slot size. I have seen this work effectively on other SO37s
Hope this helps
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Post by zaphod on Sept 11, 2018 19:16:24 GMT
A couple of notes regarding my original post. clean bottom, new main, old Genoa, original crappy cabin top traveler. The boat seems to me to be “tender” compared to many of my previous boats. In an effort to depower and still point I dropped the traveler, eased off the main sheet (to depower), then added max Vang trying to get the top of the main to help point ( seemed to help some). I plan on converting to an adjustable backstay and new Genoa next season. This is my 7th of 11 bigger sailboats and is the poorest pointing of all my boats, I sure hope I can get it sail closer to the wind (35-40 degrees apparent) next season. Adding an adjustable backstay should help you depower, yet maintain good upwind sail shape. If you are easing the mainsheet so far that you are having to bring your vang into play then you are probably easing too much. Perhaps you are not getting your main flat enough. Crank on the outhaul, and set your draft position using the Cunningham. Use the mainsheet to set your twist, and then use the traveller to depower as needed. That way you are maintaining your upwind foil shape and just using the angle of attack to depower. Don't be afraid to carry a bit of a backwind bubble if that is what it takes to keep the boat reasonably flat, but the flatter you can get the sail the less bubble you will get. If you are still overpowered, increase your twist so the top of the main spills power while the bottom keeps driving since the top of the sail has the greatest heeling force. Remember when you are setting twist, that you want to match that twist with your headsail so that your slot is reasonably parallel top to bottom. Once you add and adjustable backstay you should find that you can depower much better by increasing mast bend. This will serve to flatten the middle of the main. In the meantime you may not have your rig tuned for the correct prebend for your mainsail. You can always experiment that. (You said the main is new...have you asked your sailmaker to come out and have a look?) Unfortunately I suspect part of your problem is your shoal draft keel. You can't do much about that other than to make sure your keep shape is as fair as possible. Even so, if your sails are trimmed right you should be able to do better than 50 degrees! |
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Post by zaphod on Sept 11, 2018 19:24:29 GMT
One more thing, when you are sailing upwind, how much heel are you carrying? Every hull shape is different, but as a general rule you want to keep the boat as flat as you can...10 to 15 degrees is a good start. The more the boat heals the more helm input it takes to keep the boat from rounding up. The more weather helm you carry the more drag your rudder is creating. Drag is slow, and it won't help your pointing.
If your crew don't all have their butts on the rail, you can blame them for your pointing woes!
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Post by MartyB on Sept 11, 2018 19:54:21 GMT
Petermc hit what I was going to say 're my 130 vs 140 vs 155 pointing ability. The jib car is farther back, in my case going closer to the centerline of the boat as my track follows the out side curve. The 130 & 140 are just fore and aft of the max width. Pointing sucks.
I have 2'long tracks on cabin top like the SF has. I can point really high vs the ones on side deck using my 110. When running, putting 110 sheeting to side deck cars is better. This opens up crew for a better angle to the wind.
If you have weather helm, I removed a LOT of it by removing rake in the mast! Shortened the forestay by an inch or so. Would have to look at front fitting to verify amount.
In my mind, a jib with as much LP as is possible per say for rule you are racing under us best. I'm actually about a 157% for triangle per PHRF with 155. I took a 3 second hit deduct to base time. I'm from a sail area standpoint, in the middle of where a code 6 jib is. Should have maxed it out LP wise a bit more. This came about from a miscues between sail maker and myself.....accidental goof has in the end paid off in speed higher than rating hit. IE a 189 to 186.
Marty
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Post by hoppy on Sept 12, 2018 2:06:34 GMT
with a draft of 5'5" or 1.65m in real measurements, that's a pretty shallow draft on a SO37, so you are really up against in the pointing stakes.
Petermc will be pointing 5 degress higher than standard draft SO37 with a 1.93m draft, and it is little wonder you are struggling to point.
I agree on the reducing of the headsail area, but have a more radical suggestion. Get a non overlapping jib and ad a sheet block and tweaker to the cabin top. You will probably get a good handicap boost and in the normal conditions have good pointing which will probably more than offset any speed loss.
With the mast head rig of the SO37 (like my old SO40) I question whether adding an adjustable backstay will have any benefit other than for adjusting forestay tension. I don't see how it can bend the mast by any amount that would give you a perfomance benefit. Might be better just getting the rig professionally tuned.
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Post by zaphod on Sept 12, 2018 3:09:25 GMT
With the mast head rig of the SO37 (like my old SO40) I question whether adding an adjustable backstay will have any benefit other than for adjusting forestay tension. I don't see how it can bend the mast by any amount that would give you a perfomance benefit. Might be better just getting the rig professionally tuned. You can absolutely get mast bend from a backstay adjuster on a masthead boat. Every masthead boat I have ever raced has done it. How bendy the SO mast is I don't know, but it is very common. |
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Post by MartyB on Sept 12, 2018 4:55:15 GMT
Not positive, but iirc the SO37 may have a mini forestay like my Arcadia. So one can get some prebend this way, along with a back stay adjuster, you can get more bend aft yet. BUT, not as much as a 70-85% fractional rig.
That 5.5' draft is a hinderance, not as bad as the sub 5' keel. The std 6.5' draft or the SF 7' draft helps a lot. My 30' LOA boat has 5.5' of draft. I can get to 30* apparent with the 110, sub 40 with the 155 up!
Marty
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Post by zaphod on Sept 12, 2018 14:15:07 GMT
Not positive, but iirc the SO37 may have a mini forestay like my Arcadia. So one can get some prebend this way, along with a back stay adjuster, you can get more bend aft yet. BUT, not as much as a 70-85% fractional rig. That 5.5' draft is a hinderance, not as bad as the sub 5' keel. The std 6.5' draft or the SF 7' draft helps a lot. My 30' LOA boat has 5.5' of draft. I can get to 30* apparent with the 110, sub 40 with the 155 up! Marty Yes, the SO 37 does have a baby stay, albeit not an adjustable one. I am curious, I know the SF mast is taller than the SO, but are they made from the same extrusion or is the SF rig "sportier"? |
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Post by jcoughlin on Sept 12, 2018 19:54:26 GMT
Thank you everyone for the tips !! Lots of things to try out to improve the performance ! Cheers |
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Post by petermc on Sept 12, 2018 23:44:59 GMT
Couple interesting points raised
Did not realise the SO37 had a baby stay, not sure that was standard
Re keel depth, the SF37 is actually 2.07m, so nearly half a metre deeper in this comparison, that’s a really significant difference.
Not sure mast sections are the same on SO and SF37, principle diff being the SF mast is keel stepped and carries a lot more pre-bend than the SO
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Post by MartyB on Sept 13, 2018 4:55:36 GMT
Having looked at both specs of the boats.....the mast is a whopping 1' or so taller on the SF vs the SO. The boom on the other hand, is also longer, iirc about 2'. This gives it the length to have the main sheet traveler etc just in front of the wheel. Otherwise, the SO boom being shorter, will not be as adept with this conversion. If you put the traveler farther forward, this is doable.
The keel is also lead for the SF, vs iron for the three SO keel versions. The SF keel is about ~300 lbs heavier than the 6.5' SO keel.
These are a few of the other differences I know about in my thoughts of getting one of these two versions. I personally would go after the SF, then again, I have no real draft or bridge issues where I sail. So that extra 1.5-2' of draft vs a shallower draft version is not a big deal. Half the time the depth guage does not read the depth per say half a mile/1 kilometer of shore as it is deeper than 600'!
The baby stay can be made to be adjustable, just as one can add a back stay adjuster. I know of a couple of local Aracadia's that the owners put a 4-1 line adjustment on the stay. ALong with making it removable for lighter winds, and down wind running............
marty
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Post by hoppy on Sept 13, 2018 12:11:15 GMT
Couple interesting points raised Did not realise the SO37 had a baby stay, not sure that was standard Re keel depth, the SF37 is actually 2.07m, so nearly half a metre deeper in this comparison, that’s a really significant difference. Not sure mast sections are the same on SO and SF37, principle diff being the SF mast is keel stepped and carries a lot more pre-bend than the SO i dont know with the 37's but with the 40's, the SF mast was definately a thinner profile than on the SO. |
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Post by dralyagmas on Sept 14, 2018 0:01:11 GMT
I also have a SF37 and can point pretty well 38-42 TWA in any wind.
I agree with hoppy about a smaller headsail. I have pretty much discarded my #1 genoa for a #2 ish which is probably about 110-120%. Still sheeted on the outboard tracks. If I was racing I would definitely look at inhaulers to bring the sheeting further inboard.
I am very surprised that you are overpowered in 10 TWS though. I would consider us powered up and start to think about dropping the traveller in about 15-17 TWS. I would be sheeting the main in hard, get the jib in hard, you are probably not sheeting it in hard enough, then i would reiterate what has already been said about jib car position. That should be far forward enough to close the leech of the jib so the top is not laying off (flogging). Of course this all changes if you are overpowered.
1- Jib on hard
2- Main on hard
3- dont bother with the vang
4- outhaul on the main so the sail is pretty flat if you in relatively flat water
5- backstay hard enough to have only a small amount of forestay sag (~2-4")
6- make sure that when you are pointing higher all of the jib tell tales break (luff) together at the same time. If you top ones break before the bottom ones then move your jib car forward
What are the tell tales doping on the main? if the front 1/3rd of your sail backwinding? what are the tell tales at the top of your mainsail doing?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 8:21:17 GMT
When I bought my new sails I reduced the headsail size to 125% and by adding an adjustable backstay I manage to reach 35 degree. So it is possible as long as you are able to flatten out the headsail.
The adjustable backstay really works as when it is tight then the mast stays on lee side become really sloppy. So it nevertheless has an effect.
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Post by jcoughlin on Sept 15, 2018 9:39:15 GMT
Thank you all!
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Post by renegade27 on Sept 26, 2018 11:01:36 GMT
Had lots of problems with my SO35 shoal draft upwind, kept going sideways and rounding up.
A new jib made a HUGE difference. In any kind of wind, I sail upwind with my sails flatter than flat and pinch. I find in that config I point higher and actually make up time relative to the fleet (I'm the scratch boat).
Other tips - weight out of the bow (no more chain anchor for me), backstay on (also have a baby stay but I can DEFINITELY see the main changing shape when I tighten the backstay even with the masthead rig).
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Post by ianqv on Sept 28, 2018 11:29:12 GMT
Couple interesting points raised Did not realise the SO37 had a baby stay, not sure that was standard Re keel depth, the SF37 is actually 2.07m, so nearly half a metre deeper in this comparison, that’s a really significant difference. Not sure mast sections are the same on SO and SF37, principle diff being the SF mast is keel stepped and carries a lot more pre-bend than the SO Hi Peter, Yes the Baby stay is standard fitment. Regards Ian |
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Post by ianqv on Sept 28, 2018 11:35:12 GMT
Hi, I also have an S/O 37 with shallow keel. Obviously we can't point as high with those with "big" keels. However, I manage 40 degrees on mine with no trouble. A little about my set up... Feathering prop New sails (fully battened main) Adjustable back stay Towable Genoa cars Genoa is "just" overlapping The "quirk" I have.... I am faster on a port tack for some totally unknown reason!! (weight/wine evenly spread around the boat). If you have any questions... just shout! Hope this helps. Regards Ian |
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Post by jcoughlin on May 30, 2019 12:11:54 GMT
Three weeks away from launching with a new 125% jib and new adjustable back stay!
Anxious to try things out, and will reply to the thread on the results.
Thank you all for comments, Jim
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Post by MalcolmP on May 30, 2019 17:59:26 GMT
Three weeks away from launching with a new 125% jib and new adjustable back stay! Anxious to try things out, and will reply to the thread on the results. Thank you all for comments, Jim Good luck with the new set up, when I'm not going as fast as I think we should, I start the engine...🤔 |
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