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Post by NZL50505 on Nov 20, 2017 22:55:02 GMT
Did a sea-trial today in a 42DS and was very disappointed by reversing performance. Lots of prop walk (kicked stern to port) and very poor bite even at high revs e.g. 3000. Apparently it's a 3-bladed folding Volvo prop. Any views / experience / ideas? Thanks
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Post by Tafika II on Nov 21, 2017 0:31:14 GMT
We have a 3 blade Flexfold with very little prop walk. Run about 2500 in reverse with full control. If any walk it is very slightly to port. Is the hull clean and prop gears clean? Is the prop opening or could it be stuck half-open? Hard to see, but how about the prop pitch?
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Post by alex1949 on Nov 21, 2017 6:46:45 GMT
Hi NZL8970, Are you from New Zealand ?
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Post by MalcolmP on Nov 21, 2017 8:06:48 GMT
Could be that the prop simply has too much fouling... If not and the rest of the boat is what you want, I would recommend the Bruntons Autoprop. It will maximise your power in astern as it has proper leading edges, propwalk is controllable, as with all folding and feathering props will add to your sailing speed. I have had them on my current and previous boats and love it. Only downside is that is not cheap, but also will not wear out as it has simple bearings, unlike other folding and feathering props, which once worn have only scrap value.
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Post by Mistroma on Nov 22, 2017 1:15:38 GMT
I spotted your query on another forum and posted following.
I've had a 42DS since 2009 and always thought reversing performance was very good. A lot of revs. to get going but no noticeable prop. walk. Pressure on wheel does build up quickly if going too fast as it isn't a balanced rudder, but fine at normal reversing speed. I have the standard fixed 3 bladed prop. so folding prop. might be the cause. Unfortunately, I've never sailed a 42DS with a folding prop. You could ask on Jeanneau owners forum.
Seems likely that there's something out of whack on the folding propeller and blaes aren't deploying properly in reverse. It certainly isn't a design feature of the 42DS hull.
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Post by NZL50505 on Nov 22, 2017 10:48:17 GMT
Thanks. This is pre-purchase seatrial and boat has been recently antifouled so I don’t think prop would be dirty but I don’t know the boat or if the prop is malfunctioning. Either way sounds like it should be solvable either via a fix to current prop or replacement eg Brunton or Maxprop? Yes I’m in NZ (to answer someone’s Q). Thanks
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Post by alenka on Nov 23, 2017 23:25:29 GMT
Could all be down to technique.
Not a 42DS but a 43DS - We have found that too much power at the start will create far more prop walk than a gentle build up of revs.
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Post by pipemma on Nov 24, 2017 8:37:41 GMT
Could all be down to technique. Not a 42DS but a 43DS - We have found that too much power at the start will create far more prop walk than a gentle build up of revs. Seconded - and be patient! Also not 42DS but 44i. Having said that, it was such a pain, I needed so much run-up astern and got embarrassed by having to do a 360 by the time the rudder bit, that I swapped the OEM fixed 3-blade for a feathering Autoprop which has made a huge difference
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Post by alenka on Nov 24, 2017 11:29:59 GMT
NZI8970.
Practical Advice... Might I suggest.
The 42DS is a very popular boat with a good many out there in current use. I researched the model on the internet pretty thoroughly about five years ago as I nearly bought one myself. I do not recall any of the reviews mentioning that the boat was difficult to handle in reverse.
The 43DS is a single rudder. If memory services me correct the 42DS & 41DS are twin rudders so there is bound to be a little difference there. However, I have chartered a 41DS for a couple of weeks and wasn't disturbed by bad behaviour in reverse.
Maybe the prop fitted to this particular model you are looking at is a bit different from the norm. In which case a change of prop or some adjustment will solve the issue.
If you love the boat in all other respects I would not let this minor issue put you off. It is not, as far as I am aware, a common complaint about the 42DS so it can be rectified.
When we bought our 43DS, also fitted with a non standard feathering prop, I found the original fixed prop deep inside one of the lockers. Maybe your seller also has the original which you could try.
Maybe there is room for a bit of wiggle room over the cost of a new prop to be deducted from the asking price?
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Post by alex1949 on Nov 24, 2017 17:20:53 GMT
Hi nzl8970, That was me asking if you are from NZ. (I am away from Israel) I have a NZ made prop onboard my SO40SD and I am very pleased with my KIWI prop. Powerfull reverce at low ravs and no sidewalk at all. Main thing is a very good and helpfull costemer service by company owner. He is the best place for any prop. problem. Not far away from home.......
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Post by John on Nov 24, 2017 17:35:38 GMT
We changed to a maxprop from a flexifold on a 42i , the maxprop is as good in reverse as forward .
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Post by jdl01 on Nov 25, 2017 17:53:59 GMT
We have used both a folding 3 blade prop [flexofold] and a 3 blade feathering prop [variprop] on our 379. In reverse, the feathering prop is noticeably better at low rpm's and when initially engaged. The flexofold gives us slightly more boat speed at cruising rpm's - 2700. We had a long winding fairway we had to back down to reach our berth, so switched successfully to the feathering prop. We now have an outside berth, so we are back to the folding prop.
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Post by MalcolmP on Nov 25, 2017 19:13:02 GMT
We have used both a folding 3 blade prop [flexofold] and a 3 blade feathering prop [variprop] on our 379. In reverse, the feathering prop is noticeably better at low rpm's and when initially engaged. The flexofold gives us slightly more boat speed at cruising rpm's - 2700. We had a long winding fairway we had to back down to reach our berth, so switched successfully to the feathering prop. We now have an outside berth, so we are back to the folding prop. Good feedback, the Variprop as a feathering type, gives a proper leading edge in both reverse and forward, so that accounts for the good astern performance. But the Achilles heel of most feathering props is that the blades have to be almost flat, and so act more like a paddle wheel rather than as the helix/screw of a traditional fixed prop. The Flexofold like most folders has to make do with using the forward trailing edge when in reverse, same as fixed blades, but should give good forward propulsion. The prop that is totally different is the Autoprop as it is a feathering prop, but with proper scooped, not flat blades, which work as a helix/screw. In reverse it reconfigures in one revolution so that it has both a proper leading edge in forward and reverse. An additional long term advantage (say + 2000 hours) is that it can be rebuilt using standard bearings whereas folding props that wear cannot be realistically refurbished and gearboxes of the feathering type are tend to be prohibitively expensive to repair when worn. Bottom line though is all feathering and folding props will significantly reduce drag and improve sailing performance - typically by 0.5 - 1.0 knot, despite the added complexity (and of course cost) over a fixed prop.
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Post by ianpowolny on Nov 27, 2017 16:22:42 GMT
We added a Featherstream prop a couple of seasons ago and found the reversing performance wasn't great. Darglow supplied a new pitch cassette FOC. We found with a lot of revs in reverse we could turn the boat on prop walk but reducing the revs gave good bit and reversing control. Once move astern we can, if necessary, increase the revs but we don't often need too.
It was more about technique/finesse than a problem with the prop.
Ian
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Post by NZL50505 on Nov 27, 2017 17:59:54 GMT
Thanks everyone.
Some great experiences and insights here!
Overall I’m surprised that going from a 20yr old Kiwi design (with a 2-blade folding prop) which behaves impeccably and reverses like a car, to a modern European production boat, that I’m experiencing worse behaviour!
I guess I’ll give it a few weeks before jumping into a change because I get the point about learning a new boat’s handling characteristics - but nevertheless I think I’m heading towards a prop change as part of the solution.
Many thanks.
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Post by vasko on Nov 27, 2017 23:28:23 GMT
Thanks everyone. Some great experiences and insights here! Overall I’m surprised that going from a 20yr old Kiwi design (with a 2-blade folding prop) which behaves impeccably and reverses like a car, to a modern European production boat, that I’m experiencing worse behaviour! I guess I’ll give it a few weeks before jumping into a change because I get the point about learning a new boat’s handling characteristics - but nevertheless I think I’m heading towards a prop change as part of the solution. Many thanks. Ahaaa a learning curve The new boats are caravans, big shiny and cheaply made -maximum lasting time in mind 5 years until the charter company sells the boats....sailing - who cares as long as there is a big bedroom down and shiny useless glass on one side of the sync - but looks nice .. no one actualli wants to sail - the boat is desined to use the maximum possible from the marina berth... that's why I'm with 1990 design.. been there done that with post 2005-2010 boats - returned to old desing as I want a boat not gin palace that do not leave the berth...
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Post by alenka on Nov 28, 2017 22:51:12 GMT
I bet you wear flared trousers too Vasko!!!!
It's an age thing. There comes a point where we are happy with what we grew up with and don't like change. Just don't tell all those people that take modern plastic boats across oceans that they were only designed to sit in Marinas it might upset them!
I also seem to remember back in the 80's, when I first set foot on a serious sailing boat, people would grumble about yachts that just sat in Marinas and never went anywhere - That at least hasn't changed.
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Post by vasko on Nov 28, 2017 23:19:28 GMT
I bet you wear flared trousers too Vasko!!!! It's an age thing. There comes a point where we are happy with what we grew up with and don't like change. Just don't tell all those people that take modern plastic boats across oceans that they were only designed to sit in Marinas it might upset them! I also seem to remember back in the 80's, when I first set foot on a serious sailing boat, people would grumble about yachts that just sat in Marinas and never went anywhere - That at least hasn't changed. Yep kind of only still 47 y. old and still snowboarding about 50+ days per year - but hey - as an old guy I do alpine snowboarding and love my virus "planks" shop.virus-snowsports.com/carving-snowboards/ but yes love floral motifs on my casual shirts.. and more shorts then trousers
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Post by so36idavid on Nov 29, 2017 4:21:19 GMT
I agree that modern cruising boats don't have great performance. Prepare yourself for a shock ... older cruising boats also had lousy performance! Any modern cruising boat will blow away a Tayana 37. All boats are compromises and performance, particularly to weather, is a low priority for the designer of a cruising boat. I've raced a lot of miles on fast boats and I recognize the relative weaknesses in my boat's performance. But I'm at peace with it. I've sailed in the company of cruising boats of all sizes and in general I will get there first. It's not because my boat is so fast, it's just that I work to get the most out of it. I keep it light, I have good sails and I know how to use them. Most cruisers are quite happy to point in roughly the right direction and get there when they get there. And there's nothing wrong with that. These beautiful, frustrating, exhilarating machines are toys. The only reason they exist is for fun. If you fall asleep with a big smile on your face then you're doing it right!
David
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Post by NZL50505 on Jan 6, 2018 6:52:06 GMT
Update. Couple of days ago I donned snorkel and observed what happens to my Volvo folding prop as my wife cycled between slow ahead-neutral-slow astern a few times. As expected the prop snapped fully open for ahead, then collapsed at rest under it's own weight for neutral, then partially opened (I'm guessing about 30%) in reverse.
So no wonder it feels like the prop has fallen off when going into reverse.
So still debating 3B Flexofold vs 3B Maxprop based on other user's experiences.
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Post by so36idavid on Jan 6, 2018 16:09:16 GMT
A folding prop may not open fully when going slow astern. If you think about it, when going astern the blades are trying to pull themselves together. If you don't have sufficient water flow over the prop, or sufficient revs, then it's not going to open fully. Try getting your wife to give a burst of revs to get the boat moving at a knot or two and see what happens.
Davi
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Post by NZL50505 on Jan 6, 2018 19:28:15 GMT
A folding prop may not open fully when going slow astern. If you think about it, when going astern the blades are trying to pull themselves together. If you don't have sufficient water flow over the prop, or sufficient revs, then it's not going to open fully. Try getting your wife to give a burst of revs to get the boat moving at a knot or two and see what happens. Davi Sorry I should have clarified that at the end she did give it a good burst in reverse of about 10s and I saw no discernible difference in opening. Understand folding prop may not open fully until underway astern at done speed but that’s not when I need the pulling power. I need it when I’m stationary or even still going slowly forwards as I’m coming into my marina berth at forward steering speed eg 1.5 kts. Then I want to stop the boat in 1-2m distance by give it a quick burst in reverse. But currently it takes about half a boat length to stop from 1.5kts which is useless and means I touch the bow on the marina (which is well fendered for this reason)!
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Post by alenka on Jan 6, 2018 23:31:54 GMT
I sounds to me like there is something wrong with this prop.
I cannot say that I notice a great deal of difference between my feathering prop in forward, reverse or stopping over a fixed one.
You sure that it has received sufficient grease recently via the appropriate nipple?
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Post by vasko on Jan 7, 2018 11:31:05 GMT
take another fellow sailor and give him a try with your boat and he thinks that it is still very wring then take the prop off - change it or send it for servicing... there are so many things that can be wrong.. gearbox, pop sleeping prop itself...
and this is my prop before I changed it - I was not happy with the performance forward...
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Post by hoppy on Jan 7, 2018 21:47:32 GMT
So still debating 3B Flexofold vs 3B Maxprop based on other user's experiences. I have the 3B Flexofold on my SO40 and are very happy with the reverse. At my marina when I return, I turn into the breakwater and chuck it into reverse to back up to my dock. She stops quickly and gets up to speed quickly so I can get steerage and keep away from the other yachts.
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