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Post by hoppy on Dec 25, 2017 11:04:46 GMT
Rhodes is one of the best place to visit and the WORST MARINA OFFICE in the world - all this that you have encounter- is because you did not use the agent next door to the marina - who will sort out everything swiftly and ask for may be 200EUR - I had so many problems with this marina that I gave up in the end and just stay in anchor out - sometime get in from 12pm to 8am and go out again - my guess is that the agent is some kind of cousin-friend-brother to someone from the marina and the marina generate all this problems just to make you use the awfully expensive agent... same issues is when you try to find space in the marina - plenty of space but you are not allowed to get in because everything is booked - but when you try to book - it is not allowed for you you need to use the agent - who will ask for 120EUR+ just to help you with the lines... I assume that by marina, you mean the town quay by the old town? I used the new marina that is just out of town and is finally after a long delay opened last year. Checking out of Greece there was a pain as the port police and immigration are 1 km apart and I had to go to the police first, then immigration and finally back to the police. At immigration it was confusing to figure out which office to go into but eventually I found them.
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Post by vasko on Dec 25, 2017 11:36:29 GMT
Yep the central town marina - the new one is in the end of the world / e.g better anchor in Lindos or in front of the roman baths
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Post by alenka on Apr 5, 2018 21:30:20 GMT
As much as I love the Greeks and their way of life there are times I hang my head in my hands and wonder why.
Last year I wrote much about the new Greek DEKPA (cruising permit) and how to get one. This year fellow cruisers are starting to point out a very unpleasant downside to the whole business.... a potential €500 fine for not renewing inside the 365 day time line. Actually it gets worse!
The devil in the details states... The renewal stamp has to fall on the exact anniversary of the initial issue - Not before nor after!
Most port police have ignored the 'not before rule' and stamped DEKPA's at the end of the season giving everyone flexibility about when they returned to their boat. However, those that go by the mantra 'rules are rules' did not and now at least one harbour - Kalamata - are handing out €500 fines for late renewals.
Ironically, there is a clause in the new law that states a DEPKA is not required when the boat is not in use, but there is no definition of how 'not is use' is defined. Is it when the boat is on the hard? Is it when in a marina but with no one on board? It would seem interpretations are being made at a local level.
The Cruising Association is working hard to resolve this and if your cruising ventures are going to take you into Greece then I would suggest you consider giving them your support. Membership is a little over a £100 pa, but with many marinas and yachting companies offering 5-10% discounts to CA members it is easy to actually save more than this on your cruising costs.
Equally, you might consider voting with your feet (rudder) and boycotting those harbours that seem to enjoy making life difficult for boaters.
What ever you decide bear in mind that €500 is the minimum fine for not being in possession of a DEPKA. The maximum is €5,000!
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Post by MalcolmP on Apr 6, 2018 7:13:20 GMT
...... The Cruising Association is working hard to resolve this and if your cruising ventures are going to take you into Greece then I would suggest you consider giving them your support. Membership is a little over a £100 pa, but with many marinas and yachting companies offering 5-10% discounts to CA members it is easy to actually save more than this on your cruising costs. ..... Agree the CA is a valuable resource and very useful for many reasons, increasingly they seem to be doing a much better job than the RYA for cruisers at least. Last 2 years I have easily had more discount than the membership fee - mainly through berthing and a new life-raft purchase The annual fee is now £128, but I arranged 25% discount off first years CA membership for all registered Jeanneau owners several years ago - see www.jeanneau-owners.com/discounts.html you can email or message me for the code if you are registered as a member www.jeanneau-owners.com/register.html
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Post by vasko on Apr 6, 2018 7:21:40 GMT
as far as I understand the DEKPA is not needed if the boat is on the hard...
e.g. my plans are to get DEKPA for 6 months every year from May and October to put the boat on the hard...
btw : does someone know what are the rules about when entering in Greece and get the first DEKPA - in particular do I need the passports on all owners ? e.g. My wife name is also on the SSR certificate, but she will not be with me.. do you need to have her passport with me ? also when leaving Greece do I need to cancel the DEKPA ? or something like that ?
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Post by alenka on Apr 6, 2018 9:17:57 GMT
Getting your first DEKPA can be a very time consuming (hours) experience.
In brief.
You need to enter Greece at a designated point of entry.
You will need just about every document associated with your boat. In Greece port police interpret the rules locally as they see fit... You will certainly have to produce your certificate of registration, insurance (in Greek), you might even be asked for renewal certificates concerning life rafts and flares even your MMSI number.
You are also likely to be asked for passports of all owners or certified copies for those not in attendance. And details of your sailing qualifications. An ICC at the very least but a RYA day skipper or above seems to suffice with most.
You will start at the port police and probably be sent to the citizens advice office to be given a tax number then onto the bank to pay €50, then back to the port police for issue of the document.
It lasts 365 days. No charge for the next three date stamps. See above regarding late or early renewal. Also stated above is the ambiguity regarding when a boat is not in use. The CA are trying to kill the notion that at boat is in use unless you leave your paperwork with the PP.
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Post by hoppy on Apr 6, 2018 13:48:18 GMT
Sometimes I miss sailing in Greece, but issues like the DEKPA and cruising tax make me happy to be far from the place.
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Post by vasko on Apr 6, 2018 16:16:31 GMT
Another question - When the Cruising Tax is paid ? When the DEKPA is issues or stamped ? or ? are DEKPA and Cruising Tax connected ? How you choose for how long you need Cruising Tax ? e.g. I will need for 6 months only...
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Post by vasko on Apr 6, 2018 20:15:34 GMT
FYI: normal penalty is 5000 EUR - the guys in Kalamata that got away with 500 penalty should consider themself VERY lucky!
If you have lost DEKPA - 50 EUR and you get a new one
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Post by alenka on Apr 6, 2018 22:30:44 GMT
Firstly, the guys that had to pay €500 do not consider themselves lucky at all and many consider the whole debacle foul play and totally unfair. They were not avoiding paying, they simply don't reside in Greece and like many of us returned to their boat(s) at a different time from the previous year.
Secondly, where you come up with the idea that €5,000 is the normal fine I simply do not understand - your statement is not based on any fact. The new DEKPA has only just been introduced and these are the first recorded examples of penalties being issued. So far both incidents have happened in Kalamata.
The fine is obviously designed to deter people from not bothering with a DEKPA at all, of which there are probably many just popping into Greek waters for a short duration. Unfortunately, the legislation is badly thought out and impractical.
If the Greeks made the whole system easier then a fine would make more sense. In the UK you can renew your car tax over the internet in less than a minute. I suspects it is the same in many, many more countries.
With regards to the new cruising tax this is a totally separate issue. The only link to the DEKPA is probably the tax reference you have to get for the issue of a DEKPA. So far, although the tax has been passed into Greek law, it has yet to be implemented and this seems to be down to who will collect the tax. The PP claim they are not tax collectors. And in fairness to many Greeks involved they do not want to tax visiting yachtsman.
Finally, I doubt claiming you have lost your DEPKA will work as a get around a late renewal. If the PP tank you are taking the proverbial and not treating them with respect they will no doubt make life extremely difficult for you.
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Post by vasko on Apr 7, 2018 7:55:35 GMT
Alan,
I’m not saying that you can abuse the law. I just stated that a reissuing of lost DEKPA cost 50 EUR
I have large amount of friends with boats in the Northen Geece and the local authorities clearly stated that the fine will be 5000 EUR. But there has been no issues getting the DEKPA stamped before the one year due period, Also if the owner is not around the boat yeard was able to do it with “power of authorny” from the owner wich takrs 5 minutes to be issued i. Greece.
Getting the DEKPA itself they had a different experience sometime it takes 2-3 days sometime 1h ...
Cruising tax again is stange some places they are told to pay someplaces not - same with town quay charges..,
The only thing that is sure that you cannot get first DEKPA without all owners present or “power of athirney” from them.
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Post by alenka on Apr 8, 2018 18:07:17 GMT
It is this sort of regional variation of the rules that the CA are trying to smooth out. What your friends have encountered is not the same as others are reporting in other parts of Greece.
With so many outlying islands local interpretation is rife. And sometimes questionable. A recent event in Rhodes has left many scratching their heads and wondering why boaters are being charged €20 by PP for no obvious reason.
If you could provide details of which ports are, allegedly, already collecting the cruising tax that would be really useful. The CA have a representative in active negation at Ministerial level.
By the way my name is not Alan! Or anything close!!
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Post by vasko on Apr 8, 2018 19:56:06 GMT
It is this sort of regional variation of the rules that the CA are trying to smooth out. What your friends have encountered is not the same as others are reporting in other parts of Greece. With so many outlying islands local interpretation is rife. And sometimes questionable. A recent event in Rhodes has left many scratching their heads and wondering why boaters are being charged €20 by PP for no obvious reason. If you could provide details of which ports are, allegedly, already collecting the cruising tax that would be really useful. The CA have a representative in active negation at Ministerial level. By the way my name is not Alan! Or anything close!! Sorry for the name mistake I seems to remember someone called you Alan in the forum , but I may be wrong my friends keep their boats in Kavala and Porto Lagos - northern Greece ( the one with the tax was in Porto Lagos - but it was somehow not clear as charge was 840 EUR at the end of the season for 12.5m boat for about 6-7 months which do not seem to match anything that I can find regarding Cruising tax amounts) but he do not object and was happy to pay. Some other friend keep their boats in Fanari ( just near Porto Lagos) on the town quay and pay only one-off for a diver to install permanent anchors for the sludge-lines ... has been asked 1-2 time to pay for the town quay but they pushed it away and the problem seems to vanish in thin air so far.. btw: as I understand you are in the Ionian and as I'm going to move my boat there from August we made meet and have a bier sometime
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Post by alenka on Apr 9, 2018 8:18:21 GMT
Thanks for the info regarding cruising tex. I will pass it onto the negotiating team. I sounds like a local is being entrepreneurial!
Is it possible this is a charge for parking on the town quay rather than the cruising tax??
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Post by vasko on Apr 9, 2018 10:10:18 GMT
Is it possible this is a charge for parking on the town quay rather than the cruising tax?? Not clear to be honest - my friend considered it "make locals happy tax" and just paid it... the official reason as far as I can tell is something line "Greek waters tax"...
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Post by alenka on Apr 10, 2018 7:54:00 GMT
The guys at the CA talking to the Greek Authorities have come back to me with the following.
How much were the port fees I wonder? €840 for 183 days on a 12.5m yacht works out at about €0.37 per metre per day (or about €4.50 per day) could that be water and electricity? Also, is Porto Lagos managed by the municipality or by a third-party? If the latter they can pretty much charge what they like so the €4.50 per day could be their charge in addition to the standard port fees...
We need more detailed information really about exactly what they paid, what their receipts show, how long they were there, what facilities they used, and whether the port is municipally or privately managed.
If it is possible that you could get this information it would help them greatly.
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Post by vasko on Apr 10, 2018 9:43:21 GMT
will ask if he still have the receipt...
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Post by alenka on Apr 10, 2018 21:54:42 GMT
Vasko. The comments made to me in your PM are duly noted - It is a pity we cannot get to the bottom of these charges.
Others have pointed out that standard Greek port fees come to €0.36 per metre per day... So close to your €0.37 per metre per day that it is highly likely that these charges were for parking and not a cruising tax. Lack of clarity in a Greek receipt is quite often the norm.
For those planning on visiting Greece it should be noted that, as yet, there are no (other) reports of anyone being asked to pay the cruising tax.
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raythesailor
Junior Member
Posts: 12
Jeanneau Model: Jen 45.2,
Yacht Name: Josephine
Country: British
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Post by raythesailor on Apr 11, 2018 5:57:04 GMT
The guys at the CA talking to the Greek Authorities have come back to me with the following. How much were the port fees I wonder? €840 for 183 days on a 12.5m yacht works out at about €0.37 per metre per day (or about €4.50 per day) could that be water and electricity? Also, is Porto Lagos managed by the municipality or by a third-party? If the latter they can pretty much charge what they like so the €4.50 per day could be their charge in addition to the standard port fees...
We need more detailed information really about exactly what they paid, what their receipts show, how long they were there, what facilities they used, and whether the port is municipally or privately managed.
If it is possible that you could get this information it would help them greatly. Hi from a new member and first time poster. I recently launched my boat near to Corinth and travelled down to Epidavros to renew my papers which were about three weeks out of date. The Port Police were friendly courteous and helpful. they issued me with a new form at the cost of 50 euro paid at the local post office. There was no mention of Cruising Taxes or fines. The entire process inc the lengthy wait in the post office took about 40 mins. We have since then been asked for our papers by the PP in Leonidon on the Polpanise peninsular and again encountered no problems. Hope this will help in your discussions and will reassure fellow sailors that Greece is a great place to cruise. RayTheSailor, Poros.
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Post by alenka on Apr 14, 2018 22:09:48 GMT
Following on from my last post.
A PM asked how these charges could be calculated when the boat was only in port for around 50% of the time?
In Greece port charges are made per day - midnight to midnight.
So a one night stop equals two days of fees! Yes I know it is weird and I am sure even the Greeks would argue like crazy if they booked into a hotel and found a similar system of charging, but there it is.
The up-side is that many Greek harbour masters only collect port fees once a day, usually late in the afternoon so only charge for the one day; And by the time they come around again (next day) you have usually moved on so you only pay for the one day. In the bigger places like Poros or Athens they may make two collections but this is quite rare. On one occasion the man doing the collecting said he didn't think my boat was as large as it said on the side and 'downsized' it for the calculation!!
Sailing in Greece can be quirky to say the least. But, as Ray says, It is thoroughly enjoyable.
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raythesailor
Junior Member
Posts: 12
Jeanneau Model: Jen 45.2,
Yacht Name: Josephine
Country: British
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Post by raythesailor on Apr 28, 2018 6:16:46 GMT
Following on from my last post. A PM asked how these charges could be calculated when the boat was only in port for around 50% of the time? In Greece port charges are made per day - midnight to midnight. So a one night stop equals two days of fees! Yes I know it is weird and I am sure even the Greeks would argue like crazy if they booked into a hotel and found a similar system of charging, but there it is. The up-side is that many Greek harbour masters only collect port fees once a day, usually late in the afternoon so only charge for the one day; And by the time they come around again (next day) you have usually moved on so you only pay for the one day. In the bigger places like Poros or Athens they may make two collections but this is quite rare. On one occasion the man doing the collecting said he didn't think my boat was as large as it said on the side and 'downsized' it for the calculation!! Sailing in Greece can be quirky to say the least. But, as Ray says, It is thoroughly enjoyable. I have just met a couple in the Cycladies who were fined 500 euro in Kalamata. Don't know if they are the same people, as they said they were not the only ones. Their attitude was that it was their own fault as they in fact were living on the boat over the winter, and were there, although out of the water. They were told that if they left without paying the fine would increase to 5000 euro. It would seem that this is a Kalamata local problem. Met two other boats who who just left Kalamata, and renewed there out of date papers elsewhere without any problem.
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Post by sailbleu on Apr 28, 2018 7:21:40 GMT
Ray ,
I get confused now , was that fine given because they didn’t have a Dekpa or because they neglected to pay the new cruising tax ? With regards to that new cruising tax , I’ve spoken to several boaters that wintered in Preveza , they say the marina officials over there claimed there is no new cruising tax present . According to them this tax-story is an annual returning event , just telling what they told me mind you . In any case when their season starts ( very soon ) they will only make sure the Dekpa is ok .
Regards
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Post by alenka on Apr 28, 2018 7:35:23 GMT
Sailbleau,
If I may answer this one - I have been following the events in Kalamata over the last few months.
The PP are fining people who are out of date on their new DEKPA. The rules state it must be renewed on the 365th day - Not before or after! I know, a rather silly rule as we all visit our boats at different times each year. Most PP have ignored this and allowed people to renew early (at the end of the season) to stay current.
So far Kalamata is the only reported place resorting to fines. Although the main PP in Corfu town have also hinted at fines.
The new, proposed, cruising tax has not yet been implemented and there is no information as to when, or if, it ever will. This is not the first time a cruising tax has been passed into law in Greece but never implemented.
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Post by hoppy on Apr 28, 2018 10:21:12 GMT
Ahhh you've got to love the Greeks...
In many ways I'm happy to be away from the confusion, but it is a great place to cruise.
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raythesailor
Junior Member
Posts: 12
Jeanneau Model: Jen 45.2,
Yacht Name: Josephine
Country: British
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Post by raythesailor on Apr 29, 2018 5:19:20 GMT
Ahhh you've got to love the Greeks... In many ways I'm happy to be away from the confusion, but it is a great place to cruise. Alenka is quite correct in his assessment. The people were fined for not renewing the DEPKA forms on time. I renewed mine elsewhere which were 3 weeks out of date and merely had to pay 50Euro for new ones. As stated these Cruising Tax rumours crop up every year and nothing ever happens. When the tax was first introduced the government expected the PP to collect it. the Police refused as they said "WE are not tax collectors !" Since then the government seen to have given up the idea.
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