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Post by hoppy on Jul 15, 2016 12:51:16 GMT
I’m currently becalmed in the Ioanian and my mind has wandered ahead to sailing once Jessabbe has been moved to Melbourne, it’s highly likely I’ll be going a club and do some racing as Port Phillip bay is not so good for cruising. Hopefully as well as day races, I will try some overnighters on the bay and maybe some of the Bass Strait races. I know there will be some safety upgrades to qualify for the cat 2 races in Bass Strait (ISO liferaft rental & at least a manual bilge pump in the cabin). I guess I’b be racing under a Performance Handicap rating system which perhaps doesn’t matter if the boat is in heavy cruising spec or lightweight racing spec because the handicap will be eventually adjusted based on my performance? However no one wants to be the last boat home even if your handicap makes you competitive, so I’m looking for people opinions on how you would make a Sun Odyssey that is kitted out for cruising, faster for racing. obviously the first step should be a crash diet 1. remove all of loose non sailing items, scuba, non-essential tools and spares, food… 2. Empty water tanks 3. remove fixed items 1. Solar arch 2. replace 100m of 8mm chain & Rocna Vulcan with my Danforth and rope rode (The bay is shallow and sandy) Sails??? Currently I have a Code 1 and a G2 asymmetrics which are probably not allowed for IMS but I guess anything goes for PHS? The genoa 135% and the main is full batton. Both are 5 years old and were heavily made for cruising. I have a Harken roller system that is lower to the deck than the original Facnor and the drum can be removed. I’m guessing that any sails upgrades will be at best 1 per year, if I’m very very lucky. Assuming I am allowed to do some upgrades over time, I assume that it would be best spent on some nice laminate fore sails first? Maybe a genoa no. 1, then a no. 3,sort sail and then a laminate main? If I only have the no.1 I could use it with the roller, but then remove the roller drum when I have a 1, 3 & storm? Or would it be better to get a no.1 and the main laminates and accept that the performance is compromised once the wind picks up untilI can get a no.3 Then what? I could get more extreme and remove anything else that’s movable like cushions and start replacing blocks with low friction rings etc… but that is starting to get too much for a SO40. The same applies to changing the mast or modifying the keel. Aside from the basic weight loss, my biggest improvement will probably come for a crew member who knows how to trim the sails Any thoughts from any race interested members?
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Post by MartyB on Jul 15, 2016 13:30:18 GMT
THe asym should work in either race handicap. The Code zero depending upon cut, will either be a spin rating, or possibly a BIG genoa. Alot of cruising C0 sails do not have enough mid girth to qualify as a spin.
Another left out, is the tune of the rig. Many cruisers seem to not care about this, so the mast is not always truly where it should be, causing you to not sail fast enough on a given tack, too much weather helm etc.
Laminates are faster. String sails are fastest, but they come at a double the cost of dacron. Other lower end laminates will be as little as 20% more than dacron, but will net you 50-60% of the speed that a string does. My Ullman Tri-axle laminate is this way. your 2 main big sails, ie biggest jib, main maybe do string, rest can be tri-axle and you will do fine. This is what I have done.
Here in northern NA, around sept, Ullman offers a 30% sail, delivered in late march to early april. a way to save some funds on most of the offerings but string style.
Locally a folder/feathering prop nets you a 9 sec a mile credit. BUT, most find you gain .5-.75 knots, so a gain from 5 knots to 5.5 is a minute a mile gain. So credit is not worth having. My really small spin is a 9 sec credit too, but wing on wing sailing and the additional 9 sec credit, I can usually out sail literal and handicap faster with my 155 poled out. So get the largest sails per base handicap that you can. My 155 actually came back measuring a code 6, 3sec hit faster than the code 5 base, but at the end of the day. faster yet! May do the same with a spin, go a bit larger, take the penalty hit if it will literally gain me a bit over base rated sails.
Figure out rating rule anchor size. Locally anchor is LOA/17 cubed. So a 34'/17 =2x2x2 = 8 lbs of anchor. The overall weight is LOA squared / 80 so 34x34=1156/80=14.15 lbs total. Includes min150' of rode strong enough to hold the boat and chain if desired. Chain can be substituted for some of the anchor weight. If you got say a 7 lbs anchor, 3' of 1/4" ht chain would net you over the 8 lbs anchor/metal amount needed.
Clean bottom is always faster! ablative vs hard vs balto plate is usually not a really big factor in local races. offshore in the sydney hobart style races, this can be a factor, but by the time you are racing a WOXII, its usually the human mistakes that cost you the race, not the equipment. Even in local races it is the humans that lose the race, ie missed tack, wrong line, wrong guess on where wind will be, tide help or not.....go where the wind shifts wrong and not doing something about it sooner than later.......
While doing sails, better have lines that are on par with upgraded sails. no sta-set or yacht braid lines. Go to something with a dynema core all around. Does not do any good to have laminate sails with little to no stretch, and have a line that stretches a lot throwing it out of shape. A lot of times you can upgrade the lines for little or no cost. as a 1/2" staset line will cost the same to 20-30% more a 3/8" dynema, but the dynema is just as strong with 1/3 the stretch as sta-set. Good option for a cruiser too, as are the tri-axes laminate sails for less healing, higher wind speeds before reefing, along with better performance in lighter winds........
I do not have experience with jib roller furling, but one does locally get a 9 sec credit. BUT, I would get the BIG racing genoa to be a true full hoist without the use of furler. remove it for racing. THe smaller sails can be shorter luff mad to work with furler if need be. The luff is what nets you speed on a head sail! for the most part.
Just a few things I have found.
Marty
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Post by MartyB on Jul 15, 2016 15:11:32 GMT
Now that I am waiting in a ferry line.....first of two trips across Puget sound.....
Anchor, go with aluminum vs steel.... a fortress for example, an 8-10 lb is equal holding power to a mid 20 lb steel danforth, with Spade brands similar in weight differences. You can have an anchor still good to 40'sh knots of wind speed vs a smaller steel good to around 20 knots. Then again, for local beer can to day races, how often do you need to anchor in that high a wind? Anchors are generally used to throw out if wind does, too low, and drifting current taking you into shore or backwards. If doing offshore race, IE Sydney-Hobart, rules require min anchor up front ready to deploy, 2nd of equal or larger below. Your case, 10 lb anchor up front, 30-45 lb setup below over keel..... Best to look up rules, ask locals what is really required and go from there. Another offshore race requirement WILL be a literacy, day/beer cans will not. Fuel locally is 5 or 6 hrs at square root of hull sipped. My case 5 knots plus reserve. A whopping 2-3 gallons in my case. Obviously remove anything not needed for race, dishes, towels, clothing etc. Cushions usually are not removable if standard. BUT some do go with lightest option one can many times. Not sure for most of us, this is worth effort and cost. Removing or folding down a dodger/bimini is worth doing. These have a lot of wind resistance. most important, know local currents if any during tide ingress/egress. Wind effects from local land masses. Around here, a southerly will be a bit easterly coming off of eastern shore of Puget sound, westerly shift on west side. Knowing this can save you time and distance playing tides and wind shifts. This can be as or more important than boat prep. Doing both well you win. Know how to load boat this is.important cruising too. Too much weight up front causes weather helm. Rear LEE helm. Along with the underdog of boat will not go thru the water as efficiently as it should. Losing speed etc. Some load extra sails a bit forward, so when crew is on board, boat sits level. Then, learn how boat responds with where the crew is sitting. I can go in windier conditions from a major amount of weather helm, to none by having rail meet move 2-4" backward while going upwind, gaining .25-.5 knots boat speed. Getting a non moving 200lb crew out of rear of cockpit to on cabin top by mast going downwind, gets rear out of water, again .10-.25 boat knot speed gain. Does not sound like a lot, but having been in races where there is 10-20 seconds between boats over an hour or two or three.......These make or break you. Almost across sound, will sign off for know.... Marty
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Post by hoppy on Jul 15, 2016 19:37:22 GMT
Thanks Marty for the comments, I know I ca rely on you to comment when we are talking performance tips Good point on the rigging. I have a noticeable speed and pointing difference between tacks. On a port tack I can go a lot faster than on starboard at the same angle. Sometimes it seems to be nearly 2 knots different. I assume that much of it is related to the UV strip on the starboard side which does make the leech curl up a bit on starboard. I'm thinking that I should take the sail into a sailmaker. It will be fun to talk to sailmakers up until the point they quote a price. I like the idea of just worrying about the main and no.1 for the good stuff and taking a cheaper option on the no.3 I already have a folding prop, so that is covered BTW The other day in my marina I was drinking with Czech guy who has a Sun Fast 40. The family has owned it since new, 1999 and it's been raced extensively. On look inside shows it's had a hard life racing. It's been dismasted twice, raced in many of the big euro races and has twice raced across the atlantic (US to Europe). The SF49 chats plus a drag race with another SO40 has put my mind into race dreaming mode.
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Post by petermc on Jul 17, 2016 2:28:30 GMT
Hi Hoppy
looking forward to having you back down under mate
I agree with all of Marty's great comments. I do a lot of PHRF racing in Sydney and thought I would share what I see others do in prep and what has worked for me.
Firstly, most skippers in day races (i.e. club weekend round the cans or twilights) don't empty their boats out unnecessarily. Typically though none has any water in their tanks and any holding tanks are empty. Depending on how big the boat is that is a 300-500kg saving thats easy to do. The other is as Marty mentioned getting rid of extra chain from the anchor locker down to the min needed - and as you said Port Phillip (and Sydney region too) is mostly soft ground. We do not remove cushions, bunks or spare anchor (required for Cat 4 races we do but its a lightweight aluminium job). Bikinis and dodgers are however pretty well always lowered, but BBQs are often still on display!
For more serious regattas (like the week long Sail Port Stephens regatta we do, or Geelong Race week) we do get more serious and take a little more kit off the boat but i would doubt it would be more than 100-200kg. We make sure that anything else we have on board like extra sails etc are positioned centrally in the boat around the keel though. I the end as Marty says its all about crew positioning and If I could get more of my guys ion the rail I would be happier!
I will say that I think the most important thing though is a clean bottom. I don't know any boats I race against (weekend racers on up) that do not use a diver, or dive themselves, to clean their hull at least monthly. Over summer months its more likely 2 weekly. Can tell you from experience that when i race and the divers have not been for 3 weeks the boat is about 0.5knt slower - its amazing how much even a small bit of slime on a leading edge can disrupt water flow!
Last thing is about sails and again as Marty said they do make a difference. On the SO40, much like the SO37 and my SF37, to windward the headsail is the engine and the main typically balances. Over many years of racing and sailing we have found that for us being able to keep as much headsail up as possible allows us to compete with the newer sportier boats. To that end I have a No.1 light 163% that I carry to about 12knts, a No.1 medium 140% that I carry to about 23knts (from about 20knts + I find the boat sails better with a reef in the main and the larger headsail than a headsail change down. A mate of mine with a SO37 (Lu Lu Belle, google the name and when you find the team with lairy shirts you have found the boat) does the same thing. My No 3 is a 105% and rarely gets used, but is set on inside tracks that lets me point higher than most sports boats - so is worth putting up just to stir them up! I have a roller furler I use for a No.2 delivery sail but all the rest of my headsails are cut to fit around the fuller and tack to deck so I don't ever have to take the fuller drum off to race. My sails are laminates and are now 3 years old and all still in excellent condition, including the main that always lives on the boom under a cover - the hassle with laminates though is they hate the sun and you have to make sure you don't leave them lying around exposed when not being used, however if you manage this I get as much life out of them as I did out of my first set of more traditional cloth sails.
I think I saw from a previous post that you might be coming back via Sydney? I f you are drop me a line - you might like to come out on some of the races we do, I'm always looking for crew. The CYCA in Rushcutters runs a great series called the Short Haul races over summer. Great races for some of us of a certain age - they are non spinnaker, typically start in Harbour and race out the Heads to a buoy that is ALWAYS laid at 90% to true wind about 5 nm out, then back into the Harbour via Manly and home - 3 hrs of reaching and a beer in the hand. A couple of the races are up to Pittwater, overnight stay and race back the next day, not surprisingly the race back is somewhat more challenging after the night before.
Pete
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Post by hoppy on Jul 17, 2016 6:15:35 GMT
but BBQs are often still on display! We used to have a BBQ on the transom when we raced. Never cooked on it mid race but it could have been fun to do that. When I think of how much stuff I have on board and how small my house is, I realise I will have to rent a storage lockup Peter, how much did your sails cost you? $15k a piece? more or much more? The Short Haul races sound interesting It's looking likely now that Sydney will be nothing more than a short stopover on a quick delivery to Melbourne.
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Post by petermc on Jul 17, 2016 7:10:38 GMT
I bought the new main and No. 1 medium (I said 140% but its actually a 145%) as a bundle about 4 years ago and total cost was AUD10T, roughly 5.5 for main, 4.5 for headsail. Bought the new No.1 light (163%) 12 months ago for approx AUD$5,800T All from Quantum Think secret is to try and slot into their downtime between their work for Hamilton Island race week (early August) the summer season start and the Hobart races to get a better price. I ordered in July, took 3mths to deliver I was pretty happy with the cost
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Post by hoppy on Jul 17, 2016 12:54:16 GMT
I bought the new main and No. 1 medium (I said 140% but its actually a 145%) as a bundle about 4 years ago and total cost was AUD10T, roughly 5.5 for main, 4.5 for headsail. Bought the new No.1 light (163%) 12 months ago for approx AUD$5,800T All from Quantum Think secret is to try and slot into their downtime between their work for Hamilton Island race week (early August) the summer season start and the Hobart races to get a better price. I ordered in July, took 3mths to deliver I was pretty happy with the cost That all sounds rather respectable compared with what I was fearing although your bundle price was when the Aussie $ was high. I'll be more than happy to wait for the low season prices. I have to figure out how to get a purchase past the missus, but I have plenty to plan for that. Need to get in to the swing of Melbourne life, find a crew and start racing first. Is it normal that the crew members must be a member of a YA affiliated club to crew in more than a couple of races a year? Nice looking sails BTW
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Post by petermc on Jul 17, 2016 13:15:29 GMT
I don't know about must, my crew are not all members of yacht clubs and I'm not sure they would want to cough up the $800 per year for CYC or MHYC membership.
I believe that some clubs say they would prefer this mainly to boost their own memberships and of course Yachting Australia (YA) would certainly like that because membership brings YA membership for the crew aswell so YA itself keep pushing for it but none of the races I have entered have required crew to be members of any yacht club or YA registered.
Having said that with most clubs adopting the Top Yacht race registration platform, detailed crew information is progressively being asked for (certainly was at the Sail Port Stephens Regatta earlier this year), but its currently requested in a way that is not compulsory to complete registration for races - except for the person entering the boat themselves, hence its typically skippers mostly registered at the moment
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Post by petermc on Jul 17, 2016 13:22:31 GMT
meant to add - that phrase/requirement of being members if doing more than 3 races appears to have been "copy and pasted" by many clubs, I have seen the same wording used on the websites of most clubs that I race with, at least 4 in Sydney say something like this the cynic in me tends to ignore it, I tell my crew and leave it up to them.
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Post by MartyB on Jul 17, 2016 17:34:52 GMT
The club I belong too, requires you to own a boat! If crew does not own a boat, hard to MAKE them be a member, if membership requires a boat of x size! Some do require the skipper/owner of the boat to be a member to race for "free" per say. Others as I do many times, pay a fee for the race. Some races ALL pay a fee. But members might pay $35, non-members $50 or some such member/non-member cost.
Not sure on the rules down under, BUT, locally our PHRF and most race rules use an actual Sail Area measurement to figure out actual SA per base triangles of the boat. For me locally, if my max SA is 155% of the fortriangle. If I have a shortened luff for example, I can have an LP of 160%, still fit with in the min/max SA for the rating. Hence how some rigs with jib furling will get max area. Do not do as I did, asked for a 155 thinking it would be 155% of foretriangle, got an LP of 155, maxed out luff, SA is really about 157-158% of foretriangle, hence my 3 sec hit.....not that it has been an issue as I stated earlier. Get with someone locally that knows and understands the different parts of the rules to figure out IF and HOW to meet or beat them if you will. Main is based on about 118% of the triangle, including roach for base rating. less again, is not always best......
I'm also not a fan of the aluminum danforth style anchors. Once set they hold really well. Setting either a steel or aluminum version locally is a PITA! Hence why I have gone with two steel styles at the moment. If I could get ahold of an Aluminum Spade or equal to try out, see if it sets as well or easy as the steel version. I could be swayed into going that route. I figure a steel anchor that sets in local conditions good to 20 knots or so, is better than a 40+ knot anchor that will not set easily. Your mileage may vary.
Marty
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Post by petermc on Jul 17, 2016 22:49:14 GMT
Marty, I don't think our PHRF implementation down under is nearly as sophisticated as yours! Under PHRF here you are assigned a TCF that is more dependent on the dynamics of the fleet in the particular race series you are entered in. Then it's adjusted post each race penalising the faster boats and helping the slowest. System unfortunately penalises good crew and skipper work.
only other wide spread option down here has been IRC but not everyone wants to get their boat weighed. However in the last 12 months we have seen the ORCi or club rating system starting to be used concurrently with PHRF in our regular club races. This rating does not require a formal measurement session but is calculated off datum on sails, spars, hull, age and weight provided by the owner with a formal certificate issued by YA. I got one recently and was a simple process. This at least goes some of the way to fixing our version of PHRF down here
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Post by MartyB on Jul 18, 2016 1:56:31 GMT
web.archive.org/web/20150218145803/http://piyasailing.com/2013_PIYACertificate_A.pdfThere are local requirements for 4 different race styles and types. I also see a couple of years ago they changed a few things. Anchor sizing is one. Still min 150' of road, suitable anchor per anchor manufacture for boat shape and size, and min half boat length of chain.......Formula I had memorized is no more! oh well...... phrf-nw.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/2016-PHRF-NW-Handbook.pdfPages 11-25 have the different rating adjustments one can have. My boats base is 189, but code 6255. 6 = +3 for BIG jib, 2 = -9 for small spin, 5= normal code for main and folding/feathering prop. Still one has some fun with rating crew. BIGGER boats have gone away from PHRF, as they felt ratings were not correct......most of not many went to ORC or IRC......I believe all the boats currently doing the semi local start Victoria BC to Maui Hawaii race are doing ORC. Some of the more regional draw races will do both, some locals, only phrf..... Looking at these two requirement rules if you will, one can see how things are rated, why, how to work your rating to its best result per say. Along with as I mentioned earlier, knowing local currents, wind shifts due to land mass's, timing the start...Got a 4th earlier this year due to being a minute late, was not aggressive enough, so was under a minute behind the 2nd and 3rd place boats. Marty
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Post by davideso37 on Jul 18, 2016 13:23:14 GMT
Hi Guys. About time I chimed in with a few of my own ideas. Anchor requirements are in the Blue Book and based on hull length or displacement. Minimum appears to be a 15 kg CQR. The weight saving with the second anchor is that you need have only 2 metres of chain on it to comply while the No1 anchor needs 10 metres. I did all this and went back to 20 metres of chain for the convenience of using the anchor winch on chain only. Also the chain and anchor is back in the anchor locker and staying there. It helps to trim the nose down and keep the fat arse out of the water. Have been doing better since but this was only one of the improvements. I did take all the excess gear off. We need only one anchor for harbour Cat 7 racing so the second one is at home. Actually it is sitting in the anchor locker of the new build where it will probably stay. We took 200 kg of lead out of the bilge. When we upgraded the rig we thought we needed more ballast but what we needed was to reef earlier. Since taking the 200 kg of lead out and reducing sail earlier we have been doing well. The original SO37 rig was pretty impressive in a blow and we had Lu Lu Belle beat us off the stick in strong winds at Port Stephens because we were over powered. Contrary to Peter M we use the No 3 whenever the breeze gets over 20 knots and last week it was the No 3 and two reefs in the main. Moral of the story is go as light as possible empty the water tanks, carry minimum fuel and reduce sail early. I would love Peter M's 163% genoa for the light airs. My tri radial is under 150% so we need to get the asymmetric up as soon as we can to keep up. As for sail selection go for the best headsail you can. The main is a second order issue and frankly my old cross cut North Dacron main was probably faster than my new tri radial. I would get your sailmaker to see if the main needs any reshaping before spending good dollars on a new one. We have a furler which is great for cruising and if spinnaker racing around the buoys but we take the headsails off after every race so what is the point. I am going for a hanks on the new boat. That will save about 10 kg up in the air. Lastly on sailing the SO40 is a lovely hull. I think the Sun Fast 40 was one of the nicest yachts Jeanneau put out and I don't understand why they put a smaller rig on the Sun Fast 40.3 If there is plenty of breeze where you sail you will do well. If it is all light airs like our Sydney harbour in winter and twilights west of the harbour bridge then then you will need more sail area. I am going fat head main on my new yacht with running backstays. I should have done that on Passion and would have saved a heap of money. Re YA membership in my view if the crew do more than three races they should be members. Clubs may stipulate membership of the club as a requirement or just YA membership. Clubs now pay a fee based on bands that still works out at around $45 per member. I effectively pay a YA fee at the three clubs I where I am a member and I require my crew to have YA membership. The Blue Book only prescribes that the designated person on board shall be a member and many clubs are silent on the matter. YA membership does include some accident insurance. I could go on but....have to get up in the morning for more boat building. 3gwiz.com.au/passion_wp/?cat=3
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Post by hoppy on Jul 18, 2016 22:19:45 GMT
Thank's David for your input... more food for thought. I don't think I'll be wanting to invest in another anchor for racing, but will 100m of chain, reducing it to 10 or 20m & a rope rode will save a heap of weight anyway. My windlass can handle rope already I was thinking more about the headsail today, whist getting a sail that tacks onto the deck will be fastest by the virtue of the greater sail area, my Harken roller is pretty close to the deck (unlike the original Facnor) and if I get the sails made for the roller, I'm not going to loose much speed but will maintain a lot of convenience. Also after a race I'll be able to leave the sail on the roller as I have a cover that goes over the sail on the roller unit, so it would be protected from the UV. Perhaps my best sails upgrade path should be no 1 & no 3 then later, if at all the main. When the wind blowing, I think the shape looks pretty good, so maybe it's ok. As it is heavy, it's probably not going to work so well, but the SO40 isn't going to do so well in light winds without more sail area anyway... Something I was thinking about... The SO40 is a cruiser and not a racer, so it's not going to be competitive is a wide range of conditions like a dedicated racer might. Maybe it's best to then focus on a set of conditions where it will be at less of a disadvantage and optimise it for those conditions? If we get those conditions we can be competitive and if not, there's always next week. Light winds are not going to be our thing, so maybe it's best to get a "small" no 1 or perhaps even make the no.3 the first purchase and put a track on the cabin top for good pointing in a heavy weather race. If get the no.3 first, maybe that could be a "cheap" way to get competitive, If the winds are lighter then I just have to use my cruising genoa and smile. This is the wind rose for Melbourne in winter. Hmmmm maybe it's not so windy after all, so maybe a no.3 would not be a goof first move
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Post by MartyB on Jul 19, 2016 4:02:16 GMT
From a light wind perspective, ANY sail that is a super light cloth will help. I have a 130 that is made of 3oz spin cloth. Good to about 6 maybe 7 knots....Then the 155 string goes up. I wish I had had this sail made a big lighter. As it really shows its worth from about 9-10 knots up to 16-20 or so, depending upon the temp outside. If under 60F or so, I can go to around 15-16 knots, if in the 80's, upwards of 20 knots. I've noticed this a lot with any of the combo's I use. Warmer temps I can go a bit higher winds speed before reducing to a given setup vs cooler temps. Higher humidity makes me reduce a bit more too, due to the moisture in the air....so a dry warm day is sometimes better per say....
Having a rope/chain option that will work on race days, vs all chain is a good thing. 10MM is about a 3/8" chain iirc. That is 1.2-1.3 lbs per foot vs rope at .1 lbs per foot. Well worth it. On the other hand, if you need some more ballast per say, put the chain above the keel in the bilge!
You also mentioned lighter ball bearing sheaves etc, so far not talked about. I would put this option in with the sails. When and IF you need to upgrade, look it over. Not sure from a pure race standpoint it is worth it. but from a personal ease of working the sheets, it can be worth it. The ball bearing sheaves certainly use less energy to use. So if you find that pulling in a main is a bit tough, switching out to a BB style sheave should make it easier to do so. Along with if you upped the ratio from say 4-1 to 6-1.....even staying with a 4-1, with a winch on the other end, should make the winching easier too. ALong with quicker etc. Lines that are almost always taught, not played with, ie a halyard, BB sheaves are not always the best thing, as if they are taught for a long time, the BB's can flatten.....BUT, if racers doing ocean races are using BB style sheaves as much as possible, Not sure this latter issue is really an issue......
Hopefully you are not still becalmed, and moving.....Been watching a tracker of the Vic- Maui race, they've been all moving in the 7-13 knot range dependng upon the winds around them. The TP52's and another lightweight Bieker design have been doing the higher speeds. Crossfire a hotrod 55' boat had to turn around due to damage. I seem to recall they were saying they were in the 20's at one time.....Not something my 30' boat will do. Had a hoot the one time we hit over 10 knots! 6-8 is a normal fast speed down wind......
Marty
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Post by hoppy on Jul 19, 2016 6:31:40 GMT
You also mentioned lighter ball bearing sheaves etc, so far not talked about. I would put this option in with the sails. When and IF you need to upgrade, look it over. Not sure from a pure race standpoint it is worth it. but from a personal ease of working the sheets, it can be worth it. The ball bearing sheaves certainly use less energy to use. So if you find that pulling in a main is a bit tough, switching out to a BB style sheave should make it easier to do so. Along with if you upped the ratio from say 4-1 to 6-1.....even staying with a 4-1, with a winch on the other end, should make the winching easier too. ALong with quicker etc. Lines that are almost always taught, not played with, ie a halyard, BB sheaves are not always the best thing, as if they are taught for a long time, the BB's can flatten.....BUT, if racers doing ocean races are using BB style sheaves as much as possible, Not sure this latter issue is really an issue...... I don't find the main much of a problem even with the current 2:1 and cabin top winch. I was wondering if there could be any advantage of changing my sheets around to be setup like they are on the sunfast with genoa sheets to the cabintop and main with a german system, since I already have 2 extra winches on the cabin top. But that is probably stupid as with the current setup the mainsail trimmer can be in the companionway by the mainsheet and the main track. BTW does anyone use a NMEA data logger? With the right software it could be good for building polars and generally highlighting performance improvements after upgrades. I've seen a few loggers online, not so expensive, but I'm not sure about the software. Marty, have you tried using the polars on your MFD? I find they are a bit useless as they only go to 52 degrees and therefore my MFD only shows VERY conservative laylines. So I've changed back to the option where it mirrors the angle on the opposite tack.
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Post by petermc on Jul 19, 2016 7:11:40 GMT
For what its worth my crew like the cabin top positioning of the genoa winches because they can trim facing forward in a comfortable and braced position, especially when just cracked just off the breeze when setting the big headsail correctly makes all the difference. It also helps at the margin move the trimmers body weight forward to help compensate for my portly frame down the back!
But I don't know if it would work well with also having a traveller and mainsheet on the cabin top, its starts to get a bit busy up there. I would also say that the loads on the turning block with the rope going through almost 300deg back up to the cabin top are large and we do worry about the loads there when cranked on tight, it makes some scary noises!. Suspect the SO37/SF37 and SO40/SF40 under deck construction are identical but you would want to check that you are happy with the support for the turning block.
I have thought about switching to a german mainsheet system too but a good mate of mine with a Benneteau 40.7 tells me that he hates his because it is quite slow to get the main on when needed, and needs constant housekeeping to ensure all the spare sheet does not end up on one side! Given I still have a traveller in the cockpit, a GM system does not really free my cockpit up of clutter that much so I have put that idea away for now.
I have been following your threads about the polar upload, and have just loaded mine onto my RM Es75 &A75 but have not used them as yet. Interested in your comment re the tightest lay line at 52deg, apologies for the dumb question but is that because your file started with a 52 deg data set? I only ask because my data file's second data set is for 52deg, but my first set of datum is at 43deg? fyi, my data came complimentarily with my ORCi club certification, best value $90 I have spent recently.
Peter
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Post by davideso37 on Jul 19, 2016 13:49:10 GMT
Hi Peter,
We can hijack the thread for a moment and talk about ORCi Club. I agree it was the best $90 I have spent for a while. They had to do a special file for my winged keel so great value. With my modifications they have given us a rating where we have to give you time. I could probably fix that by cutting 500 mm off the long pole but we need it for the twilights.
Hoppy, I have a Doctorate in cabin top traveller systems having experimented with about seven different variations. At one stage I had the last falls of the mainsheet back to the cockpit floor but put it back on the cabin top after a crew member was injured in a gybe. One accident is enough. After trying many variations I went rolls royce with a wide Harken system with a double roller car. It has been little improvement over the original Jeanneau supplied cabin top traveller. We rarely use the extra width and that is only in light conditions to get the boom on centre line with low sheet tension. I am going to try the mainsheet system that the Jeanneau SO 349 uses on my new yacht. It is light and cheap and if i am not happy then I will go back to the cabin top traveller. Personally I think travellers are the most oversold system on cruising yachts and I am pleased to see a lot of yachts have given them away for simple fixed blocks. The simple fixed block either side of the companionway that is used on many Hanse models is quite good and has the added advantage of stopping the boom swinging on the mooring. i just came back to the post to add that on the photos of the Jeanneau 349 there is a great shot of the traveller system.
Re the genoa, on Passion I have a furler for most sails and a full hoist No1 heavy which tack to the deck around the furler. When tacked to the deck and reaching the foot becomes quite distorted. OK if you are doing spinnaker sailing and drop the genoa on reaches but for our mid week no extras sailing I feel it is marginal. I have reverted to tacking it to the furler drum. Still cannot furl it as it as the luff is too long to go on the top swivel but at least the foot is less distorted. On the other hand we do take the furling headsails off the furler and tack them to the deck to get the end plate effect and to lower the centre of effort of the sail.Then we put them back on the bottom furler if we need to furl. I did have snap shackles on both the deck and furler to make the change easier but I have gone back to a standard shackle to save the 50 mm gap.
Re sailing to your strengths, the SO 40 should do very well in a breeze with the standard rig. The real problem will be light airs when you will be so far behind the fleet that you may not finish in the time limit. That means no handicap adjustment for the poor result. That is the situation we found with the standard SO37 with twilight and winter racing. We put a taller mast on the boat and have not looked back but as I said if I had my time over again I would put an enormous fat head main and running backstays on. I have friends who have put fat head mains on smaller yachts and are delighted with the results. Again there is a couple of photos of the Jeanneau 349 fat head mainsail in the photos section. The sails are just cross cut dacron and look OK. If you are not going to do major surgery you could go the Lu Lu Belle option and put on a huge Code Zero. Peter Lewis does very well whenever he can set the Code Zero but the fleet cannot set spinnakers. It will help a lot in the light conditions from about 50 degrees to 90 degrees apparent but they are expensive.
Regards
David
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Post by hoppy on Jul 19, 2016 16:36:19 GMT
I have been following your threads about the polar upload, and have just loaded mine onto my RM Es75 &A75 but have not used them as yet. Interested in your comment re the tightest lay line at 52deg, apologies for the dumb question but is that because your file started with a 52 deg data set? I only ask because my data file's second data set is for 52deg, but my first set of datum is at 43deg? fyi, my data came complimentarily with my ORCi club certification, best value $90 I have spent recently. ; Yes, because the file starts at 52. It would be nice to find the original polar diagram an then I could "digitise" the data and then the Polars on my MFD would be more useful.
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Post by hoppy on Jul 19, 2016 16:57:34 GMT
Re sailing to your strengths, the SO 40 should do very well in a breeze with the standard rig. The real problem will be light airs when you will be so far behind the fleet that you may not finish in the time limit. That means no handicap adjustment for the poor result. That is the situation we found with the standard SO37 with twilight and winter racing. We put a taller mast on the boat and have not looked back but as I said if I had my time over again I would put an enormous fat head main and running backstays on. I have friends who have put fat head mains on smaller yachts and are delighted with the results. Again there is a couple of photos of the Jeanneau 349 fat head mainsail in the photos section. The sails are just cross cut dacron and look OK. If you are not going to do major surgery you could go the Lu Lu Belle option and put on a huge Code Zero. Peter Lewis does very well whenever he can set the Code Zero but the fleet cannot set spinnakers. It will help a lot in the light conditions from about 50 degrees to 90 degrees apparent but they are expensive. Today Jessabbe sailed the longest sustained "high" speed sail I think she ever has. About 35nm consistently over 7 knots and up to 8.8knots It was blowing 20 to the low 30's and a max gust of 38. The sea was a bit of a chop, but not as bad as melbourne gets. I had 2 reefs in the main and the genoa was rolled in 2 reefs, so the equivalent of a no. 3 I guess. The wind was pushing me away from my destination, so I was trying to be close hauled most of the way. Sometimes at 40 apparent but mostly at 45. Today's sail makes me keen to see how she would go with a decent no.3, both in terms of pointing and speed. For light winds I have my code 1. When the wind is up to 6 or 7 knots I can get moving at 3 or 4 knots and point to the mid 30's. As the wind picks up I have to bare away as it's a spinnaker nylon. In my youth I raced in many winter sunday races where the wind has been in the low single digits and I think the code 1 would get me moving nicely. I regret I didn't get the code 0 instead, but at the time I only wanted to have a selden removable bow sprit, but that could not support the C0 loads
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Post by MartyB on Jul 20, 2016 1:53:03 GMT
I'm personally not so sure a Code 0 would be the best light wind upwind sail for a mast head rig like the so/sf 35, 37, 40, my Arcadia etc. Locally they get counted as a big genoa, so why not just make it easier on one self and go with a lightwight 155-160, 163 as Peter has done. Much easier to tack etc. Be pretty close tot he same size etc. NOW, if you have one of the newer 7/8 down to 3/4 fractional rigs.....a Code 0 starts to make sense IMHO. You have space between the luff and the forstay to inside tack the C0, where is you have almost nothing with a mast head. It would still be worst than my babystay mast head....I think one would find they need a top down furler, furl on the tack and unfurl to the other side. I could be wrong on this too.
No I have not had a chance to try out the MFD with polars. Been working too much, not enough pay too! and now been given my third house for a parent type person to pack and make it sellable.....one still has 50 yrs of crapolla in it, ie my dads, his ski condo....not too bad.... then MIL's house that neither wife nor BIL who lives in LA vs Seattle has been up to help......joys!
marty
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Post by davideso37 on Jul 21, 2016 14:17:56 GMT
Hi Marty,
I agree with what you say about the Code 0. Expensive and have a very limited range where they add significantly to the performance of a yacht with large overlapping headsails. That said Peter Lewis in Lu Lu Belle does very well in the few conditions where he can set the code 0 and others cannot set spinnakers. Light breeze and tight angles. I had a look at the specs for the SO 40, SF 40 and SF 40.3. The SF 40 had a 1.7 metre taller mast and the genoa was set 800 mm higher. The SF 40.3 mast was dropped almost 700 mm the genoa dropped 500 mm but the boom extended 300 mm.
So compared to the SO 40.3 the SO 40 is only 300 mm shorter on the genoa hoist and 1 metre shorter on the mast. The sail area to displacement of the SO 40 is not much less than the SF37 and is certainly a lot higher than the SO 37. I would think that above 12 knots the SO 40 should be quite lively. The problem is all the sail area is on the genoa. The main is about the same size as the SF37 and is smaller than the main on my souped up SO37.
The SO 40 needs more mainsail and the most effective way to do it is to put on a big fat head main and a longer boom out to an E of 5.5 metres. The Red Hand is a super fast daysailer on the harbour and it has a mast head rig with a fat head main. The SO 349 has gone this way too and there will be more on the harbour. I saw another pretty old yacht last Sunday that had put on a fat head main but could not get a good photo. Anyway I am talking my own book because that is what we are doing with the new yacht I am building.
Luck Hoppy said the post was about hypothetical options so we can be a bit more imaginative with the suggestions.
I think you cannot race with roller furled headsails and do well. I had one with rope in a sleeve that was supposed to keep the sail shape when rolled but it looked awful so I took the weight of the rope out and now use it as a cruising sail. All my racing headsails are laminates and all the non carbon ones have been beefed up with carbon tapes so much that they are effectively string sails.
Regards
David
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Post by On y va on Jul 22, 2016 19:38:56 GMT
You get off and get Ben Ainsley on the helm. It works! We won the Oyster Palma regatta 2013 on a bog standard, overweight and fully kitted out Oyster 56, with 7 year old standard heavy duty sails.......because our helmsman was one of the best regatta sailors of Denmark. The next year, same owner, but on his new Oyster 625, but now in the Carribean Oyster Regatta.........nr. 1 again........same helmsman. They guy was truly amazing. If you can´t sail yourself, you can do all you like, but forget it.
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Post by hoppy on Jul 26, 2016 17:51:30 GMT
You get off and get Ben Ainsley on the helm. It works! We won the Oyster Palma regatta 2013 on a bog standard, overweight and fully kitted out Oyster 56, with 7 year old standard heavy duty sails.......because our helmsman was one of the best regatta sailors of Denmark. The next year, same owner, but on his new Oyster 625, but now in the Carribean Oyster Regatta.........nr. 1 again........same helmsman. They guy was truly amazing. If you can´t sail yourself, you can do all you like, but forget it. I have an expert helmsman.... My AP. Well it's better than me anyway
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