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Post by On y va on Feb 6, 2016 12:02:18 GMT
In my voyage preparations, the next "project" is an extra bilgepump. A big one!
The ones that come from the Jeanneau factory do just about meet the ISO15083 requirements (900 lt/hr up to 12m and 1.800 lt/hr above 12m), but it doesn't amount to a lot of safety nor extra time to take actions to counter any unvoluntary water ingress
As I want a high volume pump (i.e. 5.000 ltr/hr at 1 metre) it also means having to run a 1 and a 1/4 inch hose, which is causing a few headaches. Also, do you install a floater/sensor switch or not? As if you make it auto pumping, you cannot fit a seacock at the end at the through hull fitting. But, I also do not want to run this rather chunky hose all the way to the rear locker either. Regulations for secundary pumps do allow you to drain onto the deck....but where??
So I have now opted for a heavy duty pump that I will manually have to switch on on the main switch board in case it is needed, so no automatic system. The "exhaust" through hull fitting will be approx 30cm under deck level, in the unit where the black tank is (so approx 1,5m behind mid ship). The hose will first go up to deck level with a venting loop/elbow (like on the engine) then down behind the shower, wash basin toward the nav desk and down into the bilge. In that hose I will have a non-return valve approx 30cm after the venting elbow. I will not have a seacock installed, as the venting loop and non-return valve should prevent any water flowing back when the boat heels and the through hull comes under water level.
Has anybody else here fitted an extra bilgepump(s) and if so, to what capacity and how have you laid out the hoses and outlets etc?
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Post by hoppy on Feb 6, 2016 12:28:16 GMT
I would "hope" that the only time that you would need such a high capacity bilge is in a pretty much a worst case scenario. So why not leave the standard electric emptying out the bilge and fit a high capacity in the engine bay where you will probably find it easier to route a large hose from.
I know that on another forum people have added a junction to the water inlet for the engine cooling that will allow them to use the engine to evacuate large volumes of water quickly.
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Post by On y va on Feb 6, 2016 14:53:03 GMT
I would "hope" that the only time that you would need such a high capacity bilge is in a pretty much a worst case scenario. So why not leave the standard electric emptying out the bilge and fit a high capacity in the engine bay where you will probably find it easier to route a large hose from. I know that on another forum people have added a junction to the water inlet for the engine cooling that will allow them to use the engine to evacuate large volumes of water quickly. Yes, ofcourse you hope that you never have to use it ofcourse. I hope it will prove to be a total waste of money! But, as the water ingress is usually more than any bilgepump can cope with, it does buy you valuable time to repair or stop the leak or something. I too will make a junction in the engine cooling water intake. It is the obvious "bilge pump". I have 2 engine cooling water intakes infact, that come together in a bronze manifold just under the cooling water strainer. I know it means an extra hole in the hull, but I do not want to rely on only one engine cooling water intake.
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Post by sailbleu on Feb 7, 2016 9:32:16 GMT
Hey on y va ,
I have a back up submersible pump in the bilge , you know the type they use to empty cellars etc. , 220 AC ( on the inverter) . Previously a danfoss centrifugal pump was there as a deckwash pump. Never used it and replaced it by the submersible type . Never used that either sofar ( thank god) but it's available just in case. These high capacity pumps could one day make the difference between having the time to get the neccesairy stuff in the raft or jump ship with only a rudimentary grab bag .
Regards
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Post by abgreenbank on Feb 7, 2016 10:14:59 GMT
When I installed my air conditioning systems I also installed a shower sump Kit to remove the condensate. I made sure it was located near the bilge sump/ pump and all I have to do is remove the lid and I have an extra 50l/min (not sure it's quite that good) bilge pump.
i assume my boat is similar to most jeanneau so in that it has 2 bilge pumps installed, one at the sump (float switch operated) which can be tested via the auto/off/manual switch and the other tested only by covering the sensor with water to operate, this pump is fitted on the water distribution panel, unless I am missing something?
regards
ab
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Post by On y va on Feb 7, 2016 14:37:25 GMT
Ab, if it is rated at 50 ltrs per hour, it is probably effective @40-42 ltrs at 1 metre, thus 2.5 cubic metres per hour. So that is already more than the ISO requirement for your boat. Add to that your other pumps and you are more than ok.
The older Sun Odyssey´s (i.e mine of 1999) do not have their bilgepumps directed to the batteries. I.e. if I turn my service main switch off, there is no power to the bilgepump (or anything else). I find that strange, but have not bothered to change it either yet. I don´t know if that is still the case in newer Jeanneau´s.
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Post by rxc on Feb 7, 2016 19:52:58 GMT
I installed a Rule 14A pump (3700 gallons/hr=230 liters/min) pump on my 43DS last year, after carrying it around for 6 years. It is attached directly to the breaker at the panel without a float switch, although I now have a float switch that I will likely install later this year. Likely I will install the float siwtch in parallel with the breaker switch, but directly from a connection to the batteries in the engine compartment. I would want to have the pump start automatically if I don't notice the boat sinking, but also want to have a switch to start it before the float activates. I am also thinking about a water sensor in the bilge.
The pump is installed about 1 inch above the bilge level, at the foot of the ladder into the boat, just fwd of the engine, but not in the engine compartment (this is complicated, because of the way that the 43DS bilge is subdivided - I will have to take some photos and post them).
The hose runs aft thru the engine compartment, under the aft cabin bed, then up to a thru hull in the stern that is right where the stern light used to be mounted, before it was relocated to the top of my arch.
The hose is a swimming pool hose, 1 1/2" in size, very smooth, and the thru-hull is a curved tailpiece to minimize form losses. I think that the hose is 25 ft long and the rise from the pump is about 3 feet. There are no sharp bends anywhere in the hose - only a gentle rise to the stern where it makes a turn up to the tailpiece.
This is an emergency pump, intended to attempt to delay sinking in event of a serious hull leak. I also have a 220v submersible pump that I can run from my inverter, as long as the water level is not too high. I do not have an engine suction option, yet, because it would be very difficult to access, given how Jeanneau installed the engine thru-hull.
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Post by hoppy on Feb 8, 2016 9:19:39 GMT
This thread has gotten me a little paranoid now Been looking around and besides finding a few Rule pumps, i found this pump from Johnson which does 4000gph or 252l/m. You can use a 38mm or 50mm hose. www.boatelectricals.co.uk/bilge-pump-heavy-duty-252lpm-12v/I guess if it's just for an emergency, you might as well get the biggest capacity you can fit. Thinking about it, a float switch might be a good idea in case the water flowing in is less than your emergency pumps capacity.
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Post by On y va on Feb 8, 2016 13:22:58 GMT
Well if u wanna cross oceans hoppy, u need to think about these things! The problem with these really big pumps is the size of the hose. 38mm (let alone 50mm) is a toilet pump out sized hose, which I think is just too much for a 40 footer to have lying in your interior....somewhere. I am going for 1 1/4" hose, which can handle like 120 ltrs per minute. That is ok really and gives me a total of approx 6 cubic metres per hour, which is more than 6x the requirement of the ISO norm for an SO40. Something else to keep in mind: on Jeanneau´s like ours (and many more Jeanneau models in that respect), don´t forget that they most like sink nose down, as the keels on most versions of Jeanneau´s are placed quite forward (there was a video on the Jeanneau Owners Facebook with a Jeanneau sinking, also nose down). The engine is not heavy enough in relation to the keel. So placing an emergency bilgepump too much in the back (i.e. engine bay) is in my view not a good idea. Hence I worked out the plan as I described in my initial post: the actual pump in the centre near the original bilgepump and so reduce the length of hose and have it pump out on the side. But to do this, you must have an airvent elbow and a non return valve installed.
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Post by alex1949 on Feb 8, 2016 20:14:27 GMT
Hi folks, Can anyone tell how much of a volume can we expect the engine with a buypass to the seawater inlet suck out of the bilge if properly equipped ? (mine is the Volvo D-2 55) Would it be even close to that giant pump by Johnson ?
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Post by On y va on Feb 9, 2016 8:31:23 GMT
Hi folks, Can anyone tell how much of a volume can we expect the engine with a buypass to the seawater inlet suck out of the bilge if properly equipped ? (mine is the Volvo D-2 55) Would it be even close to that giant pump by Johnson ? It comes no where near the giant Johnson pump. Just look at your exhaust and what comes out. That´s it. On various forums you read nonsense about your engine will shift huge amounts of water. Well how? As I said, look at your exhaust and what you see is what you get. But, my view is: if I rev my engine at say 2000 rpm or more, it will help pump out several hundreds of litres per hour. So that, plus the standard bilgepump plus the extra bilgepump: every bit helps and every minute extra can make a difference. Hence I probably will make the T-connection in the inlet, as it is a simple thing to do anyway. There are pumps you can connect to your engine, just as a bilgepump. That is a different kettle of fish totally. And then suddenly you can pump like 50.000 litres per hour with a 55 HP engine......but in our boats, there is no space for that, nor do you really need that sort of volume either.
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Post by alex1949 on Feb 9, 2016 12:25:07 GMT
Thnx On y va, You recommend actually to go and fit that simple by pass for the engine pump and leave there say 5 meters of 1'' water pipe with a quick connection ready to go. I agree no room for a clutch assembly plus pump in our engine room although this mean of pumping can last more time than the electrical tools while under flood. Next thing to do.
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Post by On y va on Feb 9, 2016 12:42:07 GMT
alex1949 : I don´t recommend anything really, it is just something I will do. And yes, a bronze T piece with a seacock directly on the T and maybe 2 or 3 metres of hose. It just adds to the total of m3 of bilge pumping capacity. When you prepare for extended voyages, you need to consider these things. If I wasn´t, I probably wouldn´t bother with most of these things. Maybe only a second, smaller bilgepump as a backup as my boat only has one electric unit and a hand bilge pump. But with my plans, I need/want large volume, like 5 M3 per hour or even a little more. But not things that drain my batteries in 20 minutes either (in case I cannot start the engine).
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Post by alex1949 on Feb 9, 2016 16:35:58 GMT
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Post by chuckr on Feb 12, 2016 9:38:05 GMT
Before we left we put in a 3,700gal/hr pump with a separate float switch and an alarm. We also added a thur hull way above the water line and we connected everything to the batteries direct. The idea of course is that if it ever goes off it will give us enough time to get off the boat.
Some asked about the engine water. We did an in the water change of the dripless shaft bearing. And let me tell you when that when the old bearing was pulled a lot of water came in and the Jeanneau installed bilge pump handled it nicely. We were pleased to see that.
By the way about every couple of months we lift the switch on the both the alarm and the big pump just to make sure they run.
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Post by geitz on Feb 13, 2016 14:21:00 GMT
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Post by Tafika II on Feb 13, 2016 16:20:57 GMT
We have the standard Jeanneau factory installed setup with the automatic remote switch pump & a switched forward bilge surface mounted Rule 1000 as well as the cockpit hand pump. We also installed an automatic Whale SuperSub SS1212 1100 pump mid bilge. We have a diverter with a strainer from the engine thru-hull valve that can be used as a backup to suck water from the bilge thru the engine. If all else fails, we have an EPIRB, a life raft, a bottle of good wine and insurance!
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Post by hoppy on Feb 13, 2016 18:22:47 GMT
Well if u wanna cross oceans hoppy, u need to think about these things! The problem with these really big pumps is the size of the hose. 38mm (let alone 50mm) is a toilet pump out sized hose, which I think is just too much for a 40 footer to have lying in your interior....somewhere. I am going for 1 1/4" hose, which can handle like 120 ltrs per minute. That is ok really and gives me a total of approx 6 cubic metres per hour, which is more than 6x the requirement of the ISO norm for an SO40. Something else to keep in mind: on Jeanneau´s like ours (and many more Jeanneau models in that respect), don´t forget that they most like sink nose down, as the keels on most versions of Jeanneau´s are placed quite forward (there was a video on the Jeanneau Owners Facebook with a Jeanneau sinking, also nose down). The engine is not heavy enough in relation to the keel. So placing an emergency bilgepump too much in the back (i.e. engine bay) is in my view not a good idea. Hence I worked out the plan as I described in my initial post: the actual pump in the centre near the original bilgepump and so reduce the length of hose and have it pump out on the side. But to do this, you must have an airvent elbow and a non return valve installed. Not sure now on the ocean crossing thing, but regardless I would like to add a high capacity pump. I get your point on the hose size, so perhaps something like a Rule 1500 or 2000 with the 28.6mm hose outlet is a better choice... Will be interest to here what unit you get and how you end up fitting it since I wont be in Greece until mid March at the earliest. I see Rule have automatic versions of both pumps but they are something like 2 inches taller than the manual versions which may or may not be a tight squeeze under the floorboards
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Post by alex1949 on Feb 13, 2016 23:22:47 GMT
Sounds good.............. Any one of our forum experts - please comment
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Post by On y va on Feb 14, 2016 14:20:56 GMT
Hey Alex and or geitz....where will you fit this?? There is not enough drive shaft length for this. hoppy : I got an Attwood 1700, an american made heavy duty unit. There is also the Attwood 2000, but than I need to change the fuse on the switch panel, besides it uses more amps. The Attwood 1700 does 4.180 ltr at 1 metre (5.700 open flow). So that, plus the existing Jabsco unit give me a good 5 cubic metres per hour. Add to that 1 couple of hundred from the engine intake.....that will do. The hand bilge pump.....ever tried it? Your arm is on fire after 4 minutes of pumping. I don´t think that thing is going to save me, especially when one is alone on board. @tafika II....are these seaococks for watermaker and aircon in your boat?? I would be worried with seacocks in such a state.... The engine instake diversion looks very good though. Nice if you have some space to work with.
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Post by Tafika II on Feb 14, 2016 15:47:35 GMT
Yes, but these seacocks have since been replaced and are cleaned, worked and maintained monthly of not more often. Not worried. Thanks for the comments.
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Post by hoppy on Mar 19, 2016 16:59:28 GMT
In my voyage preparations, the next "project" is an extra bilgepump. A big one! The ones that come from the Jeanneau factory do just about meet the ISO15083 requirements (900 lt/hr up to 12m and 1.800 lt/hr above 12m), but it doesn't amount to a lot of safety nor extra time to take actions to counter any unvoluntary water ingress As I want a high volume pump (i.e. 5.000 ltr/hr at 1 metre) it also means having to run a 1 and a 1/4 inch hose, which is causing a few headaches. Also, do you install a floater/sensor switch or not? As if you make it auto pumping, you cannot fit a seacock at the end at the through hull fitting. But, I also do not want to run this rather chunky hose all the way to the rear locker either. Regulations for secundary pumps do allow you to drain onto the deck....but where?? So I have now opted for a heavy duty pump that I will manually have to switch on on the main switch board in case it is needed, so no automatic system. The "exhaust" through hull fitting will be approx 30cm under deck level, in the unit where the black tank is (so approx 1,5m behind mid ship). The hose will first go up to deck level with a venting loop/elbow (like on the engine) then down behind the shower, wash basin toward the nav desk and down into the bilge. In that hose I will have a non-return valve approx 30cm after the venting elbow. I will not have a seacock installed, as the venting loop and non-return valve should prevent any water flowing back when the boat heels and the through hull comes under water level. Has anybody else here fitted an extra bilgepump(s) and if so, to what capacity and how have you laid out the hoses and outlets etc? Have you installed it yet? I've bought a Rule 2000 and a 25mm hose. Looks like a challenge to run the hose from behind the nav station to behind the shower (hole time ) I bought a float switch and was thinking of running it from the same bilge pump switch, but it draws 12A and the bilge pump 7A and as I vaguely recall that the switches are 15A, then I need a separate switch. Maybe I'll buy a switch with an alarm. BTW I decided to pay attention to my current bilge pump. It's actually a Jabsco shower drain pump rated at 780lpm. Perhaps not the best setup
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Post by On y va on Mar 19, 2016 17:29:47 GMT
hoppy : no not yet. Not planning to sink anytime soon. And yes, the ones they installed in our SO40´s are the bare ISO standard minimum. And yes, the fuses are 15A. I have the pump, the skin fitting, the non-return valve and a syphon........but not the hose yet. Perfect would be a 28mm (internal) hose, but they are not available everywhere. I recently found one suitable one in Bauhaus in the end, so hopefully they have it at Bauhaus in Valencia too. It is actually very easy to run the hose from the nav desk passed the shower. You either run it along the stringer or, what I do is I have an old piece of plastic covered railing wire of like 4 metres, with the rounded end fitting still on it, which I push through. Makes life very easy that way. It would be good if someone could help you with this. One to push the hose, the other to pull whatever you use to pull. One small comment. The Rule 2000 also requires a 28mm fitting. All these pumps of that sort of volume need 28 to 30mm inner diameter. The problem is that if you use a 25mm hose, you will lose capacity.
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Post by On y va on Mar 19, 2016 17:30:36 GMT
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Post by hoppy on Mar 19, 2016 18:20:41 GMT
It is actually very easy to run the hose from the nav desk passed the shower. You either run it along the stringer or, what I do is I have an old piece of plastic covered railing wire of like 4 metres, with the rounded end fitting still on it, which I push through. Makes life very easy that way. It would be good if someone could help you with this. One to push the hose, the other to pull whatever you use to pull. There is one hole I've been using for cables but that won't work for the hose now. I have not been able to see the access at the stringer level, but I have not tried too hard. Will have a better look again soon One small comment. The Rule 2000 also requires a 28mm fitting. All these pumps of that sort of volume need 28 to 30mm inner diameter. The problem is that if you use a 25mm hose, you will lose capacity. Bugger... I measured it and got 24mm I think, but I did not measure the hose barb. I guess that's where I stuffed up. Bugger
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