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Post by hoppy on Dec 29, 2014 20:08:33 GMT
your headsail is not more than a piece of shapeless cloth. As I say to my personal trainer friend. Round is a shape :-) I had to quickly finish my last post as I needed to go through security and board my flight. If you do a coconut run circumnavigation following the trades then you are probably fine using the rolled up genoa in stormy weather. Perhaps if you do get caught for a couple of days, not pointing so high might not be much of a problem. Once you are in the Caribbean, you can stay in port when conditions call for a stormsail. In the Aegean sea in Greece over summer you get the Meltemi blowing hard like I experienced, then most people stay in port. We ventured out each day because we were treating it like a delivery and Jessabbé was totally fine even when it was blowing 40+ with the exception of the pointing. Actually it was more comfortable sailing than being tossed around at anchor. If I think about that particular trip, then I think I'd be happy with a removable forestay mounted behind the windlass with a hank on sail. I would have had it setup every day and either have the storm sail up when leaving harbour or at least mounted with the sail tied to the deck ready to be hoisted. |
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Post by Trevor on Dec 29, 2014 20:38:14 GMT
Thanks gents, I get the picture now.  Regards, |
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Post by On y va on Dec 29, 2014 21:07:25 GMT
I think I am repeating myself: I wouldn´t even consider a cutterstay or removable stay if I was staying in the Valencia and or Mallorca area. Or even in the Med.
However, I have only done what I have done in view of my navigational plans. I am not really interested in a circumnavigation, but my current route plan is to sail to Panama, through the canal and than do like a figure 8 into the Pacific, so I can include NZ, Aussieland, Indonesia, Japan and a lot of Pacific Islands. I am at the moment not sure which way I would do the (more or less) figure 8. I Haven´t worked it out in detail yet.
Then back to Northern Chile and round South America (the correct way) and up Brasil back to Europe.....or not.
So I think I need a furling staysail and running backstays.
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Post by sitara on Dec 29, 2014 21:29:26 GMT
Storm sails should give you the ability to sail away from a lee shore in 40+ knots when the motor fails or the prop gets tangled in rope.
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Post by hoppy on Dec 30, 2014 6:34:39 GMT
I think I am repeating myself: I wouldn´t even consider a cutterstay or removable stay if I was staying in the Valencia and or Mallorca area. Or even in the Med. However, I have only done what I have done in view of my navigational plans. I am not really interested in a circumnavigation, but my current route plan is to sail to Panama, through the canal and than do like a figure 8 into the Pacific, so I can include NZ, Aussieland, Indonesia, Japan and a lot of Pacific Islands. I am at the moment not sure which way I would do the (more or less) figure 8. I Haven´t worked it out in detail yet. Then back to Northern Chile and round South America (the correct way) and up Brasil back to Europe.....or not. So I think I need a furling staysail and running backstays. I was thinking on the plane to write that whilst the storm sail is probably not necessary on the run to the Caribbean, It's probably a good thing for the return journey. Also if you are doing a circumnavigation now, then if you are sensible you will be avoiding the Gulf of Aden and having to go around South Africa, the the storm sail might be prudent. |
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Post by hoppy on Dec 30, 2014 6:35:55 GMT
Storm sails should give you the ability to sail away from a lee shore in 40+ knots when the motor fails or the prop gets tangled in rope. Or get to a windward shore for protection and rest |
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Post by sitara on Dec 30, 2014 6:56:18 GMT
Good point hoppy,
If there is plenty of sea room a drogue (or series drogue) off the stern is another way of getting a rest, not that I have tried it yet!
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Post by On y va on Dec 30, 2014 12:02:51 GMT
I have 3 drogues on my boat in various sizes and tried the biggest one once in a force 5/6. It did really help you keep the boat´s bow in the wind in these conditions, but not really in one place. I was surprised that I was still moving like 1,5 knots (just by wind, as there is no current where I sailed). But, ok, it is not one of these huge parachute drogues you can deploy. I don´t have one, nor am I going to buy one. They are rather cumbersome to deploy, so I have heard.
The biggest one I have is 160cm in diameter. Another one of 100cm and one of 60cm. The latter mainly used to slow you down or as an emergency/emergency rudder (as I have a hydrovane as primary emergency rudder). If you run the smallest drogue from both genua winches, you can sort of steer the boat. But I yet need to try and experience this myself.
But I think we are veering off topic a little now......
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Post by zofiasailing on Feb 2, 2015 23:12:38 GMT
The discussion on storm sails and removable forestays etc has been interesting reading. We also were in search of solutions to first of all strengthen the rig and later to provide a suitable 'strong wind'/ storm solution for longer passages. We have a 42 SO DS (2006 built) and we are are a husband and wife only crew, cruising not racing. In the first instance we were fortunate that our mast already had the opening for an inner forestay and there was already a strong point and Pade-eye on the foredeck. The deck-top combing suggests that this was a factory spec and not added post build. This was a lucky break as it made adding the inner forestay easier although the single D Pad-eye was replaced with a double fitting and larger one that could accommodate the Witchard tensioning attachment. Below deck, a steel plate was added to reinforce the setup. This gave us great peace of mind for future occurrences of strong conditions although it made tacking a bit slower. This was Phase 1. Shopping list included the stay, the Witchard tensioner, replacement deck mounted double D pad-eyes and metal backing plate. In preparing for our Australian circumnavigation we embarked on Phase 2 - Getting some kind of storm sail. In consultation with our sailmaker 'Bugsie' at Avalon Sails we were recommended a High cut #3 that we could keep in a special bag on deck and hanked-on ready to just deploy when needed. It's made of a heavier cloth that our Jeanneau supplied Quantum Genoa thus less prone to stretch. We really like it and our boat sails really well with it, pointing better than the genoa with equivalent cloth area on show. The sheets for this sail required a pair of extra cars for the track plus 2 pairs of jammers so that the genoa sheets can be locked down while the stern winches are occupied with the storm jib and visa versa. Shopping list included custom sail and deck bag, sheets, 2 cars, 2 sheet guides, 2 double jammers. Phase 3. While the inner forestay and new sail were a success, there were shortcomings. Raising the storm sail from the deck bag was very iffy, no matter how carefully we tried to lubricate the zippers. This necessitated a trip 'up front' to unzip the bag and later to re-stow. When do you want to use this sail? When it's getting a bit willing! When don't you want to go up front? When it's a bit willing! By the time we had crossed the Great Australian Bight we knew we had the right sail combination but the deployment method needed improvement. Shopping this time was for a new inner forestay of fixed length and a Harken furling system. The sail was sent to a sailmaker to have the hanks removed, a bolt rope etc sewn on plus a UV Strip. We think we have the solution nailed now and we even get an extra 1/2 knot when we have the whole cutter rig up! Over the last couple of years there have been huge developments in furling systems and spare/ extra sails can easily be set up with only a halyard and no fixed stay. In fact if we were buying a spinnaker now, we'd go for the furling type rather than the snuffer bag like we have. What we came up with in the end is working well for us and it does not require a lot of muscle and we're happy to recommend. It deploys fast and is quick to furl in (20 winch turns Vs 64 for the genoa -puff puff). It's ideal for hoving-to also. In the meantime we do have a spare inner forestay with an expensive Witchard tensioner sitting in a bilge locker in case anyone is scouring the 2nd hand market?
Attachment Deleted
I hope this is helpful for anyone contemplating a similar project. SV Zofia |
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Post by hoppy on Feb 3, 2015 11:22:30 GMT
If sailmakers say my code 0 roller idea will work, then perhaps I will look at your solution for mounting then I could leave it up and ready on long passages when as the headstem mounting would only be usable if I see i will need the sail soon. How are you running the sheets? Through the same block on the genoa track and you've doubled up the locking blocks by the winch? I forgot to mention... At the London Boat Show I spoke to a couple of sailmakers about my idea and they said it was no problem. One suggested a wire luff and that i'd probably need to retighten the halyard but it was doable... The main problem they highlighted was €£$€£$€£$€£$€£$€£$€£$€£$€£$€£$  I just google the Facnor roller I posted here and the discounted US price was $2,392 yikes.... At least it almost makes the price of a continuous roller almost bearable  |
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Post by Full Circle on Feb 4, 2015 11:44:54 GMT
Here is the Storm Jib arrangement on Full Circle, a Sun Odyssey 35 Lift Keel. The essence is that the removeable forestay is stowed by the port side shrouds on a folding pad eye. It has a canvas zipped bag over the black and tackle to prevent the genoa catching on it whilst tacking. The forestay fitting is a 6mm stainless fixed ubolt going through the bow roller/forestay fitting stainless plate, so no further reinforcement deemed necessary. The forestay is a 19x7 wire 7mm with a T fitting in the mast just above the original uphaul spinnaker pole halyard, so that the halyard can be used for the storm jib. This season, I am having a uphaul fitted just below this, as we now have a symmetrical kite as well as the furling cruising chute on a bowsprit. The forestay is tautened by leading the tail from the block arrangement over the coachroof to the winches. Once tightened with the winch, it can be removed, as the block at the forestay has a cam cleat. You can of course retighten by loading back on the winch and tweaking. The storm jib sheets lead back though the original genoa tack blocks, as they approach from a much higher angle. The storm jib is very high cut to allow waves to sweep through, and is about 70sq ft from memory. The bowsprit was not fitted when these pics were taken, but occupies the port side bow roller position.  i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup10.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup4.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup6.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup14.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup12.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup11.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup9.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup8.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup7.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup5.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup2.jpg i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/jimdew/Storm%20Jib/StormJibsetup1.jpg |
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Post by hoppy on Feb 10, 2015 10:02:46 GMT
I think I am repeating myself: I wouldn´t even consider a cutterstay or removable stay if I was staying in the Valencia and or Mallorca area. Or even in the Med. However, I have only done what I have done in view of my navigational plans. I am not really interested in a circumnavigation, but my current route plan is to sail to Panama, through the canal and than do like a figure 8 into the Pacific, so I can include NZ, Aussieland, Indonesia, Japan and a lot of Pacific Islands. I am at the moment not sure which way I would do the (more or less) figure 8. I Haven´t worked it out in detail yet. Then back to Northern Chile and round South America (the correct way) and up Brasil back to Europe.....or not. So I think I need a furling staysail and running backstays. I saw on the Selden site that if the inner forestay is connected within 7/8 th's of the mast height, then you don't need the running backstays. I was thinking that if I get serious that I will contact Z-spars and see if they say the same about their masts. BTW. Did you ever consider adding a genoa track or perhaps just a single block to the cabin top and and using the cabin top winches. I would probably consider that especially as I have 4 winches up there |
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Post by hoppy on Feb 10, 2015 10:15:19 GMT
For those of you who have added the inner forestay, did you use a off the shelf fitting on the mast? (sailbleu I know you made your own  and if you have Z-spars, did it come from them? Did you fit it with the mast still up? I think I can have a 2nd headsail halyard added without any problem but as it will come out of the mast much higher than the forestay, perhaps I could use something like this harken Halyard restrainer?  |
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Post by On y va on Feb 10, 2015 13:59:14 GMT
It is not a typical Z-Spar or Selden backing plate I used. It is a off the shelve T terminal backing plate for a 7mm stay. First I considered a tang, but that is a nuisance fitting it with the mast up. This backing plate was easy with the mast up.
And yes, if you fit it 7/8th, you don't really need running backstays. But, I wanted running backstays as well as a stay going to the second spreaders. It makes life a lot more complicated that way, but it gives u an extra triangle plus the fact of the nice curve the mast has now plus I wanted a permanent staysail.
So it is all about choices.
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Post by hoppy on Feb 10, 2015 14:52:04 GMT
Do you have a picture of your parts ? All I can find are things like this which I suspect is a pain with the mast up  |
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Post by ianpowolny on Feb 10, 2015 17:47:44 GMT
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Post by hoppy on Feb 10, 2015 18:44:24 GMT
I saw something like that the other day. Is it mounted on on the mast surface or inside? |
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Post by hoppy on Feb 10, 2015 18:52:36 GMT
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Post by manaia on Feb 10, 2015 18:52:50 GMT
Hi zofiasailing,
Thanks for the pic of the stay arrangement, do you have a pic of the inside of the deck, the steel plate that you have added ?
Some other posts have suggested that the stay should be carried on inside the boat to a firm anchoring point if it is terminated around the windlass -
I'd be interested to know if you have you noticed any deck flexing or other affects of your set up,
Thanks, Steve
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Post by hoppy on Feb 10, 2015 20:17:06 GMT
On Y Va,
Do you have a photo of the support bracket you fitted in the cabin before it was installed?
Is it just a rectangle shape (cut to fit the hull obviously) or is it H shaped to spread the load along the beams?
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Post by On y va on Feb 11, 2015 11:21:38 GMT
Do you have a picture of your parts ? All I can find are things like this which I suspect is a pain with the mast up No, they are actually much easier to fit than a tang (the one on the next picture, seems a Wichard tang). I already bought this Wichard tang, till I realised how complicated it was going to be to get it right, hanging in a bosun´s chair (I did some trials at home). With the backing plates shown in this photo, one round hole is drilled in the mast. Then you put the plate on the mast and mark the holes. Then drill the holes to the correct rivet size. You than manouvre the plate through the hole (with a little safety line) and fit the 4 rivets (with plenty of duralac or tefgel anywhere there is contact between stainless and aluminium) and that´s it. About half an hour job. To cut a neat slot in the mast, is much more difficult while haning in the mast. Look here for the parts and look here for the end result. |
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Post by hoppy on Feb 11, 2015 12:15:39 GMT
It sometimes can be really hard to find the links in a text. It was only when the cursor changed over the "here" that I found it.
Thanks...
Malcolm, is it possible to set the forum up so that the text for a link is by default bold, italics, underlined or something?
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Post by MalcolmP on Feb 11, 2015 13:09:17 GMT
It sometimes can be really hard to find the links in a text. It was only when the cursor changed over the "here" that I found it. Thanks... Malcolm, is it possible to set the forum up so that the text for a link is by default bold, italics, underlined or something? Just had a quick look at the css I might be able to, will work on it Malcolm |
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Post by hoppy on Feb 11, 2015 13:35:22 GMT
fantastic!
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Post by On y va on Feb 11, 2015 13:52:21 GMT
On Y Va, Do you have a photo of the support bracket you fitted in the cabin before it was installed? Is it just a rectangle shape (cut to fit the hull obviously) or is it H shaped to spread the load along the beams? Support bracket? I am not sure I know what you mean. Have you looked at the photos on my SY On y va FB page? Most parts and bits and brackets are on there in the album "cutterstay project". Here is the link |
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and if you have Z-spars, did it come from them? Did you fit it with the mast still up?
