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Post by cm on Jul 16, 2013 4:19:39 GMT
Having read that Jeanneau use brass seacocks instead of bronze, I thought I would replace them on my 5 year old SO 39i. I had her out for antifouling anyway. Some seacocks had alarming "growth" on the outside (from immersion in salt water) and you can't take chances in this area. I had also heard reports of a boat or two sinking because of this short-sighted practice by Jeanneau.
The bronze through-hulls had to be cut out as the seacocks had "welded" themselves to the bronze. A little surface pink on the bronze but otherwise fine. The brass bodied seacocks had s/s ball valves and were in better shape than had first appeared. The boatyard reckoned that they would have lasted no more than about another 2 years.
I helped with the work but the total cost was close to AUD 800, mostly for the four seacocks and through-hulls. One seacock had to be left for another day as it appeared in good condition and would have taken an hour or two of removing fittings to get at.
Had the seacocks been bronze, I could have waited at least another 5 years, maybe 10, according to the boatyard. They had been changing them on charter fleets.
So, thank you Jeanneau for another cheapskate practice that has cost me dearly and could have endangered the life of myself and crew. How much did Jeanneau save? $50 max. Shame on them.
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Post by j on Jul 16, 2013 5:00:03 GMT
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Post by touchngo on Jul 16, 2013 7:00:21 GMT
If it helps any other SO40 owners out there, I am in the process of replacing ALL my through hulls, valves, and tails with TruDesign ones. This will be done at the next haul out, so hopefully we will keep floating until then! From my email correspondence with them; "...Our fittings use a standard British Standard Parallel thread BSPP so are not only designed to fit other Tru-Design fittings, but other fittings which carry a BSP thread. We also do a NPS thread range for the US market however we are building this range and some products are not available in NPS threads yet. So first you need Skin Fittings: www.trudesignplastics.com/products/20-skin-fittings-threaded(I have spec'd in Black with Standard head, also available in White and Recessed type head) 1x 90431 4x 90422 4x 90420 2x 90428 Ball Valves: www.trudesignplastics.com/products/8-manual-ball-valve(Also available in position monitored) 1x 90276 4x 90242 4x 90240 2x 90472 and finally the Male-Tail Straight Connector www.trudesignplastics.com/products/22-tails-straight1x 90252 4x 90263 4x 90285 2x 90518 There are complete ranges of tail connectors which attach to the Ball Valves so there must be some sort of misunderstanding. We do a full range of 90º Male-Tail connectors (http://www.trudesignplastics.com/products/3-tail-long-thread-90 which may be an alternative to the straight Mail-Tail connectors I have spec'd above." As per the links posted by cm, the Marelon range from Forespar are an alternative to Bronze and DZR also. Will report back once they're in! Cheers, PT |
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Post by jennso37 on Jul 26, 2013 1:14:08 GMT
Replaced all of mine in our Beneteau 381 last winter. Total cost $850 using bronze Grocco parts.
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Post by j on Aug 1, 2013 8:48:49 GMT
We've just started removing the fittings.
-After removing the hose from the engine water intake I was able to break the hose tail with my fingers, it literally crumbled.
-The valves are ordinary plated brass
-The skin fittings *look like* bronze but we are replacing them anyway because a) they'd need to be removed and resealed after taking the valves off due to the sealant failing while undoing the valves b) some of the threads were damaged while removing the valves c) potentially damaged due to the mixture of different metals. d) the new skin fittings are fairly cheap.
-We are also using Tru Design reinforced nylon fittings as replacements (cost for all parts for the 4 through hulls was $350AUD inc. freight from NZ)
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Post by sitara on Aug 1, 2013 22:20:52 GMT
J, what age is your 36i? I would like to know how long I have to go! I like the idea of using the reinforced nylon system - any comments on the ease or otherwise of the head outlet fitting would be handy.
I was sailing with a mate in a 1996 Jeanneau 36 Sunfast. We found a leak around the seacock on the sink drain and when we tried to tighten the hose clamp the hosetail disintegrated. Luckily the seacock itself was OK. This was on a trip in Bass Strait in some pretty isolated areas. The story could have been a lot worse if the hosetail had failed while we were sleeping.
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Post by j on Aug 2, 2013 8:24:11 GMT
J, what age is your 36i? I would like to know how long I have to go! Launched January 2009, It's not like the valves were about to fail, they'd probably last another few years easily, but the condition of the hose tails encouraged us to replace the whole lot sooner rather than later! The valves are pink on the internal threads, when I have time I'll cut them in half to see how bad they were. The specification and branding on the valves correspond to an ordinary brass house hold valve made by an Italian company (can't think of the name right now) We used a hole saw to remove the exterior flanges from all of the skin fittings, this allowed the internal assembly to be pulled out easily. To do this we hammered a wooden plug into the hole to locate the pilot drill for the hole saw. Doing it this way avoided damaging the hull - a couple of photos are attached.   Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted |
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Post by sitara on Aug 2, 2013 21:48:26 GMT
Thanks J,
I like the hole saw idea. Will plan a replacement exercise a couple of years down the track along with regular inspections. I also have wooden plugs located at each hull fitting ready for use.
Sitara
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Post by j53owner on Aug 5, 2013 18:07:15 GMT
has anyone evaluated the composition of the thru hulls? or noticed the use of unlike metals in thru-hulls? or had premature thru hull failure?
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efitz
Junior Member
Posts: 12
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Post by efitz on Aug 6, 2013 14:45:13 GMT
Like many others on this thread, I am also a bit concerned about the sea cocks and through hulls. The engine intake on my 2005 SO 35 is the one that worries me most. In particular the hose tail and elbow.
I had planned to replace the fittings and through hull this spring but I only had a six day lay up which I feel wasn't enough for the sikaflex to cure. Also, while I managed to source bronze bits for most parts, I couldn't get a bronze elbow. After reading this thread I'm getting a bit more nervous. I have a lot of discolouration on the hose tail and elbow and tend to get constant condensation in this area - at least I hope that's what it is. It tends to occur when the air temperature is a few degrees higher than the sea, or vice versa. This summer being warmer than most, the condensation is more prevalent. If this isn't what it is and the hose tail has become porous, then the degradation of the brass is a lot more advanced than I thought it was. I was also a bit concerned about using sikaflex as I have never managed to get anti fouling to agree with it. As mentioned elsewhere, I find that the anti fouling tends to go sticky on the sikaflex after a couple of days, which might prevent the sealant from curing properly.
I am not planning to come out of the water again until next march, so I'm really doing a bit of advanced research so that I' m ready to replace the fittings then. I leave the sea cock in the closed position when the engine is not in use, so this gives me a bit of comfort.
At the risk of hijacking the thread, I have a few questions:
What is the best sealant to use for the through hull other than sikaflex?
How hard should the skin fitting be tightened to the hull bearing in mind that it is metal on GRP?
What is the best sealant for sealing the threads on the various parts up the line?
Where can I get a bronze elbow?
Many thanks.
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Post by sitara on Aug 6, 2013 22:00:38 GMT
Hi Efitz,
I sugest that you have a look at the Tru-design website, While they manufacture the reinforced nylon components they do have some good instruction on installation procedures (http://trudesignplastics.com.s3.amazonaws.com/products/documents/20/original.pdf?1352423228) using epoxy , sikaflex and others that should be relevant to bronze fittings.
Bronze 90 degree elbow - these are available from West marine (http://www.westmarine.com) part no. 106690 for a 2" NPT thread.
You can check that the condensation on the seacocks is fresh (condensation) by tasting. If it is seepage it should be strongly salt flavoured. On my SO36i I am getting a little seepage on the holding tank seacock although this appears to be a leak around the plastic (?) hosetail to pipe join. I tightened the clamps so maybe that will fix it.
I am leaning towards replacing all the skin fittings, ball valves and hosetails with reinforced nylon components which will eliminate corrosion issues completely and hopefully not introduce other headaches. As this material is used on all speedlog fittings I have seen I cannot see that there will be other problems.
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Post by Mistroma on Aug 6, 2013 22:15:54 GMT
It's been a couple of years since I last checked the fittings closely but have obviously checked the exterior surfaces prior to launch each year. I have also cleaned the inside of one random skin-fitting each year and no sign of dezincification visible. It was difficult to determine material used in skin-fittings and elbows but they seemed to be better quality than the valves and tails (both def. household brass). Last thorough check was in 2011 after 3 seasons afloat (3x6 months in water). The engine cooling inlet looked perfect (http://www.mistroma.com/SeacockEngine.html) but I did replace the ball-valve in the forward head as it was quite sticky (but otherwise fine). Time to do another check this winter. I'll remove the cooling inlet valve and tail for inspection and if these look good I'll just check the exterior of the strainer. Then I'll clean up all the exterior surfaces and dismantle the worst looking one to check valve, tail etc. I'm hoping to get away with replacing some valves and tails and leave skin-fittings for another year. I'll post information here when I have dismantled some fittings. I have no doubt that Jeanneau used cheap household brass for valves and tails. Can anyone confirm materials used for elbows and skin-fittings? I've just relied on colour and texture to convince me that these are not made from brass. I'm hoping to visit NZ this winter so might check if it is worth buying some TruDesign bits when I'm over there. EFITZ, forgot to mention ASAP have bronze elbows www.asap-supplies.com/marine/bronze-plumbing-connectionsThe fittings are parallel thread and need something to make a seal (fibre washer and/or sealant). I used ROCOL Oilseal when assembling the valve to the skin-fitting and also for the tail. It worked very well and it was easy to get a good seal with the valve body rotated to the desired position. |
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Post by j on Aug 7, 2013 0:43:15 GMT
holding tank seacock although this appears to be a leak around the plastic (?) hosetail Yes, our old holding tank hosetail was plastic - and I'm fairly certain that it was ordinary plastic, not reinforced. |
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Post by Mistroma on Aug 7, 2013 11:57:19 GMT
Yes, ours is also normal plastic (i.e. Doesn't look reinforced). I imagine that the standard brass tail would crumble very quickly when left immersed in urine & faeces for much of the time. Jeanneau would have used cheap brass if they thought they could get away with it.
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Post by davideso37 on Aug 19, 2013 10:26:32 GMT
Hi!
I have just changed all the skin fittings on our November 2005 launch Sun Odyssey 37 and thought this was a good place to give a report.
Our holding tank outlet valve failed two years ago and we had already replaced that with a True Design 2 inch valve.
I considered a ten year replacement period would be reasonable but wanted to change all the skin fittings to flush ones and so we changed them all a few years early.
I cheated and got the boat yard to remove all the fittings. In the process the True Design valve stem failed and the motor inlet had to be cut off but otherwise all the valves, tails and skin fittings were retrieved intact.
All the valves exposed to only salt water were in excellent condition. The holding tank valves both the original Bronze and the new True Design failed. The toilet outlet valve ball was very pitted and would not have lasted much longer. The sink outlet valve was fair while the toilet inlet, the hand basin outlet, the shower pump outlet and the engine intake looked like new.
All the skin fittings were in excellent condition and would have lasted many more years. All the tails were OK but being thinner metal to begin with would not have lasted as long.
My choice for replacement for five of the smaller valves was the Forespar Marelon fittings and we went for the integrated plumbing system 93 series with flush skin fittings. These valves need to sit against a flat inner surface so I made fibreglass disks with vinyl ester resin and bogged these to the inside of the hull using vinyl ester bog . These valves have a very wide base which provides substantial design strength to the system and are seated on two rings of Sikaflex.
For the two largest diameter outlets I went for the Forespar Marelon Flowtech Performance valve which has a plug that seals the inlet at the skin and gives a low friction unit. These valves need to be bogged in with something strong like a vinylester bog and then have layers of glass over them to secure them to the hull. Again I used fibreglass disks bogged to the hull to ensure a perfectly flat base and to add hull thickness so that only the minimum 12 mm needed to be ground off the outside of the valve plug to get a smooth surface.
It has not been a cheap exercise but I have flush skin fittings, through hulls that should last the lifetime of the yacht and Marelon valves and hose tails. The two Flowtech Performance valves will need changing from time to time as the seal is via an O ring but I expect that will be a very easy task and the other options on the toilet outlet have failed anyway.
Regards
David
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Post by cm on Sept 2, 2013 21:45:33 GMT
I thought that the through-hulls were bronze and the seacocks were brass. I have just received confirmation from Jeanneau by email that my 2008 SO39i had brass through-hulls. I have replaced them anyway along with the seacocks.
I am even more disgusted at Jeanneau's lack of concern over safety. All that money we have to spend just so that Jeanneau can save the equivalent of a round of drinks at the clubhouse. Shame on them.
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dakota1
Junior Member
Posts: 16
Jeanneau Model: 49 DS
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Post by dakota1 on Sept 7, 2013 21:08:43 GMT
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Post by tedp on Sept 10, 2013 11:48:25 GMT
Is this a problem in boats only on salt water or also on fresh water? Our berth is in a large fresh water lake and we only occasionally venture out on tidal (salt) waters.
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Post by MalcolmP on Sept 10, 2013 14:21:35 GMT
Is this a problem in boats only on salt water or also on fresh water? Our berth is in a large fresh water lake and we only occasionally venture out on tidal (salt) waters. The conductivity of fresh water is much less than salt water - but it still conducts so a circuit for electrolysis is still possible, but all other things being equal I would expect that the problem should be far less in fresh - added to which the lack of corrosive properties of fresh water alone should also reduce surface corrosion. Guess that presumes the water is really fresh - some rivers have horrible things dissolved in them of course, but hope most in Europe at least they are now a lot cleaner |
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Post by tedp on Sept 10, 2013 14:41:19 GMT
Thanks, Malcolm, that puts my mind at ease. But I'll do a close inspection anyway when she is hauled out!
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Post by sailbleu on Sept 10, 2013 15:23:49 GMT
Man , seeing those pics is so scary.Is there really no way to prevent this from happening ?
Next to replacing everything each decade that is.
Regards
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riborg
New Member
Jeanneau 54 DS "AQUAHOLIC"
Posts: 3
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Post by riborg on Sept 18, 2013 10:20:39 GMT
Hi
Almost two years ago (dec 2011) I updated all my thru-hull fittings on my 2003/4 54 DS. All 24 of them!!!
The decision came after one of them broke while exercising it. Water started to enter the hull. NOT VERY FUNNY :-(
Fortunately we could lift the boat out of the water the same day.
As far as I remember 4 or 5 of the old standard Jeanneau brass were corroded and not safe.
The cost was high!!!
I should send the bill to Jeanneau because they have used cheap italian brass :-(
Otherwise I love my 54DS :-)
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Post by hoppy on Sept 20, 2013 7:29:14 GMT
If it helps any other SO40 owners out there, I am in the process of replacing ALL my through hulls, valves, and tails with TruDesign ones. This will be done at the next haul out, so hopefully we will keep floating until then! From my email correspondence with them; "...Our fittings use a standard British Standard Parallel thread BSPP so are not only designed to fit other Tru-Design fittings, but other fittings which carry a BSP thread. We also do a NPS thread range for the US market however we are building this range and some products are not available in NPS threads yet. So first you need Skin Fittings: www.trudesignplastics.com/products/20-skin-fittings-threaded(I have spec'd in Black with Standard head, also available in White and Recessed type head) 1x 90431 4x 90422 4x 90420 2x 90428 Ball Valves: www.trudesignplastics.com/products/8-manual-ball-valve(Also available in position monitored) 1x 90276 4x 90242 4x 90240 2x 90472 and finally the Male-Tail Straight Connector www.trudesignplastics.com/products/22-tails-straight1x 90252 4x 90263 4x 90285 2x 90518 There are complete ranges of tail connectors which attach to the Ball Valves so there must be some sort of misunderstanding. We do a full range of 90º Male-Tail connectors (http://www.trudesignplastics.com/products/3-tail-long-thread-90 which may be an alternative to the straight Mail-Tail connectors I have spec'd above." As per the links posted by cm, the Marelon range from Forespar are an alternative to Bronze and DZR also. Will report back once they're in! Cheers, PT PT, do you have a price for these? I started his morning thinking about a holding tank and converting my Jabsco to electric. Whilst looking at what work I needed to do, the sight of my seacocks reminded me of this thread and now I am paranoid and have added replacing them to my winter to do list. |
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Post by j on Sept 20, 2013 8:15:09 GMT
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Post by hoppy on Sept 20, 2013 8:26:32 GMT
Thanks. I'll build up a shopping basket and see what I come up with to get a ballpark starting point. |
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