PHRF

[DUET]

I have just completed my purchase contract for a 50 DS. Does anyone have a PHRF rating for the DS? My order is for the shoal draft model, but with the classic mast (NE waters).

[MartyB]

You are probably a bit too new to have a rating, USSAILING does not have a rating as of yet.

But, here are some right around your size. The numbers left to right are High, low and ave for NAmerica. I would suspect you will be 50-100 or there abouts for a base, then depending upon the actual sail sizes etc you will get your appropriate credits.

JEANNEAU 49 SUN ODYSSEY 108 108 108
JEANNEAU 51 SUN ODYSSEY 51 51 51
JEANNEAU 54 SUN ODYSS DS 66 66 66
JEANNEAU 54 SUN ODYSS SD 42 60 48

Here is the 80 some odd page document you can look up "ANY" boat with a phrf rating, ie there are over 4100 boats listed.

offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/PHRF/High+Low+Mean+PHRF+Handicaps.pdf

Then here is a listing for PHRF-NE ie New England
www.phrfne.org/page/567

Marty

[jcurry]

Hey Marty, thanks for the PHRF link. Unfortunately, my Sun 2000 is not on the list. I found a few numbers in the UK, but I guess I will have her measured and try to establish a number here in the US.

[MartyB]

jcurry,

Frankly, I am not surprised you can not find a PHRF number already, IIRC you probably have the "ONLY" sun 2000 here in North America. So you will be the initial one. It would not surprise me if you did not equal some of the reasonably faster built 20-22' trailer sailers here in the states, ie a catalina 22, sanjuan 21 etc. 220-240 IIRC.

Marty

[jcurry]

I am hoping the number is closer to the Beneteau First 210. The specs are similar, but the Benny comes in at 201 which seems mighty low compared to the Catalina 22 at 270 and SH 21 at 252.

One of the officers with the Lake Michigan PHRF Fleet guessed at 261 based on an email with the measurements from the factory.

I wish I could use the data and rating from Europe but I guess there is not an easy or recognized conversion.

[MartyB]

Just remember the lower the number, the "FASTER" the boat. If specs are similar to the B210, but you get a 261 rating, it might be easier to sail to that rating and win races. As you would be considered 60 sec or a minute mile slower than the B210. 201 for a 21' boat seems a bit fast, then again, IIRC a Lightning is in the 190 range.

[DUET]

Marty:

Thanks for your comments and the links. I looked up each, but with a new hull and a classic main, there are a few varibles. In the meantime, I am applying for Us Sailing numbers and am trying to get a hull numer so I can apply for a formal rating (YRALIS) which I'll share with all. So much of the process is subjective as I learned with an Express 37 with competitive boat owners on the committee.

[Black Diamond]

My Jeanneau 39i Performance, is rated in white sail PHRF 108, and Asym Spin 86. For Lake Ontario, I think these numbers are too low, what do you think.

More on the boat www.radonic.wordpress.com then click on boat.

[DUET]

I just received my PHRF rating for YRALIS. This is for a 50 DS with a classic mast, but with shoal draft: 57. This should be interesting for those thinking of a 50.

[MartyB]

I personally do not see an issue with a 57 for a 50' boat. The 39iP with an 88 rating, that to me is a gift rating, I would expect it to be in the upper 70 to 81 or 84 here in the NW. THe 39iP is probably the MOST powered up i series boat the jeanneau is offering at the moment. It should not be that much slower than a C&C 115, J109, B36.7 all of which around here ie pugetsound are 69-72. Yes a 39i is about 2000 lbs heavier, but similar sail area, longer waterline........it will be slower, but with an 88, that should be a giant killer

The thing that one needs to remember about PHRF ratings or ANY rating for that matter, it is assumed you have a fully faired bottom. GOOD sails, ie string type, ex 3DLs, Ullman Fiberpath, UK tape drive. Dacron sails is a 10-15 sec per mile handicap, radonic original tri radials that are 3-4 yrs and who know how many miles racing and cruising are SHOT! yes, that is right, SHOT from a racing perspective!

Also, a BIG anchor off the bow, another killer of speed, put the minimum anchor/chain requirements on your boat. For my 30'r it is a 5.5 lb anchor and 2 lbs of chain or an 8 lb anchor and no chain with all rope rode. DO you race with a dodger? radonic does, there is NO credit for one of those, that is another 10-20 sec a mile killer of speed!

So if you have a dodger, old sails, BIG anchor, you have just given the competition 30-50 secs a mile! The chance of you even being in the same county as them finishing, is slim and none!

If the 50ds has a fixed prop, yes you do get a 6 sec credit, BUT putting a folder on it, nets you .5-1 knot of boat speed, so an increase from say 5-6 knots, is 2 min a mile gain! so a net of 1min 54 secs over the rating credit. If only a half knot from 5-5.5 you still net about a min per mile faster than the fixed prop.

While many race with a furler, IIRC about a 9 sec credit, reality is, again like the prop, getting rid of the furler, and going with a sail to the deck will net you more speed than the credit allows. With this in mind, do NOT furl the head sail, have a smaller one to put on over reefing/furling the HS, too much time loss!

Remember if you race, take out the puffy pillow that keep the wife happy, put that anchor below in the middle of the boat, not at the bow, get laminate sails, have a clean bottom, get rid of the pots and pans you do not have to have etc. make your boat light and fast, then you can win races, otherwise, you will beech about your rating!

Hope some of these hints help.

marty

[Black Diamond]

Great Post, Great Advice, Thanks so Much, I do appreciated it! This year, I am starting to do some of that. Got rid of the anchor and chain, weight on the boat, and dodger & Bimini for serious races. It's a lot of work turning the boat from cruiser to racer every week. But trying my best.

Recent Regatta Closed Club Race, with a proper crew, out of 3 races, we took 2 line honors and 2nd place boat for boat. We beat boats with lower ratings.

The boat is capable, just need to getting all the ducks in a row.

[Sérénité]

I have my S.O. 34.2 here on Bainbridge Island in WA. It has all the standard equipment that it came with and a heavy Bruce anchor, two blade fixed prop and standard sails. I would like to get a PHRF rating and enter a "Jack and Jill" fun race here in Puget Sound. The handicapper for my yacht club cannot find a rating for my boat and it is not listed on the site given on this list with over 4,000 boats. The race is coming up soon and I am still without a handicap. Can anyone help me with this?

[MartyB]

There is a formula to figure out a base PHRF rating. Unfortunetly, i can not find it on the USSAILING site, nor the local PHRF-NW site. The 34.2 is listed in the 5000+ boat types with critical demensions, so you should be able to get a base number. I would swag it to be in the 130-140 range, depending upon jib size, draft etc.

Marty

[MartyB]

Found the formula, please note, it might get you close any how. PHRF-NW is also typically 10% slower rated for most if not all boats. This was done a number of years back, to make things more competitive. Not sure if it has or not...........

Hopefully this will help get you close. Which club are you trying to get a handicap out of? if local can not figure it out, you may want to go higher up, Matt Wood IIRC is the local regional one up from your club, assuming you are in the what is call northern Puget Sound region.

Marty



R' is the rating as predicted by the formula:

R' = 610-8.36*(SA/Disp^.333)+0.0000511*(SA^2)-55*(P/(J+E)) -30.8*(LWL^.5)-602*(DR^2/SA)

where SA= .5*(I*J)+.5*(P*E)

[so40gtb]

By the Schell regression formula, R' for our SO34.2 (standard rig, shoal draft keel) is 129. Lake Michigan PHRF last week issued a base rating of 123, adjusted it to 132 on the basis of a sunbrella-striped genny, and gave a non-spinnaker rating of 144. The LMPHRF presumes a feathering or folding prop, which we have, so the pertinent handicap for a boat with the standard Radice two-blader would be a bit higher.

The whole reason to join US Sailing and apply for a formal PHRF was our participation in the Lake Michigan Single-Handed Society's annual Double-Handed race, which starts Thursday morning. We do the 56 mile northward run up the west side of the Big Lake. The real reasons to go, from our p/o/v, are the "informal" awards that happen after the time-distance formalities are dispensed with, the pre-dinner BYO wine & snacks aboard one boat or another, the after-dinner bar-hopping, and the overall cameraderie.

[MartyB]

Carl

Good info, IIRC Nancy has an SD too. could be wrong....... so with a 123 time 1.10 being 135 for a base here in the NW, then she probably has a code 4 main plus 3, code 4 Jib, maybe a 3, so another plus 3 or 6, plus 6 for the fixed prop, plus 9 for roller furling.....156 FS, and 174 for NFS.

My swag based on Carls info, knowing what little I know about how phrf-nw does things.......

Nancy, if you are at poes cove this weekend, enjoy the roundezvous, not able to make it again for the 3rd yr. grumble grumble grumble.......

Marty

[davideso37]

Marty,
I have enjoyed reading your advice here. I have removed about 75kgs and will remove another 50kgs when I take the 30 metres of 10mm chain off an put on a 10m minimum requirement chain. Some of the crew think this is obsessive on a 6,100kg yacht but the crunching the numbers in your formula indicates it is worth the effort.
Next I am thinking of getting a longer luff light air genoa and sailing with it off the furler and tacked to the deck as you suggest. For the smaller headsails with shorter luff lengths used in heavier airs is there any advantage in taking them off the furler?
Regards
David E

[MartyB]

David,

Not sure if there is or is not an advantage to on or off the furler, other than a "it depends" Ie lighter airs, where the wind is higher, better being a foot higher off the deck. If it is heavy and low, the lower the sail, the less heeling one should have in equal winds actually.

If it were me frankly, i would race with out the furler on if it were one of the 2 bolt on /off setups to be done in 5 min or less. Hopefully the furler has twin grooves, then you can hoist one up while powering still with the other. Assuming you are in a flying sails division as it is local. If a non flying sail, then one must drop the raised jib before hoisting the smaller/larger one. BUT< I can at least hoist the 2nd one, t about 5' off the deck, 2nd halyard ready to go, replacement goes reasonably smooth. altho it is nicer to hoist one in front of the other, then drop the one in the back on deck wth out losing speed/power etc.

I would think 100-200kgs would be some speed gain, especially if some if off the bow in chain wt etc. Keeps the hobby horsing down any how! or allows the bow to lift quicker going against seas,then that could be good or bad too...........

The big head sail, try to make that as light of material as you can, that way it will catch those 1-3 knot zephyrs, I am realizing my 155 is a bit heavy, altho great when above 10 knots, not as good tween the drifters end at about 6-7 knots, and 10 knots.

Marty

[MartyB]

Not to say good or bad, but noticed today Nancy has a rating for her 34.2, phrf of 180. I was not too far off needless to say! Missed the code 3 jib, another +3, then she got 21secs for NFS, vs what I thought to be 18, due to the code 3 jib vs a 4! Dang close!

Marty

[catawba33i]

FYI....PHRF-LE ( Lake Erie ) SO 33i standard rig shoal draft =132