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Post by Maravilla on Dec 18, 2019 15:32:08 GMT
Any experience with Battle Born lithium batteries? Going to have to replace house bank and thought it might be time to go to lithium. Thanks!
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Post by sailbleu on Dec 18, 2019 16:04:29 GMT
This is one for our board-expert member ...Vasco
Regards
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Post by panoramix on Dec 18, 2019 17:44:13 GMT
At this link you can find all info on Lifepo4 batteries on boats. It is a lot to read but really worthwhile!
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Post by Maravilla on Dec 19, 2019 0:57:47 GMT
Great info. Thanks!
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Post by vasko on Dec 19, 2019 14:51:24 GMT
Lithium batteries are defiantly the way to go - but they are number of questions around them 1. how to calculate how big battery bank you need : - if you already know that 400ah wet cells are OK then you will need roughly about 200ah Lithium also if you decide to go with LiFePo4 type then you actually may need about 150ah compared to 400ah wet cells. - this mainly because your consumption is actually in WATTs not in amps - e.g. Volts * Amps = Watts - and as the wett cells are between 12.6 to 12.0 volts and LiFePo4 start at 14.6v then you will get a lot more watts from LiFePo4 then from wet cells - also take in account that from wet cells you can use max about 50% of the capacity as going lower will lead to damaged cells.. 2. which type - the two most common are LiFePo4 and 18650 cells - the 18650 12v bank - work from 12.8 to 9v and LiFePo4 work from 14.6v to 10V - e.g. a lot more energy (watts) from LiFePo4. 18650 cells usually last about 1000 cycles and LiFePo4 last 2000-4000 cycles . 18650 cells usually are a bit overrated including the top quality once e.g. I will assume 10-30% less actual/usable capacity less then the rated one - e.g. my choice will be LiFePo4 3. how many banks etc. - you need to make sure you know what is your maximum consumption which can last more then 30 sec - e.g. windlass + all investors + all appliances - else you may end-up to be unable to get the anchor up .... the maximum consumption should be supplied by the BMS - e.g. do not expect one bank with 100amps BMS to manage all you needs ... 4. where to buy - my suggestion is aliexpress - ready LiFePo4 battery pack with BMS inside a convention wet cell box - direct drop in replacements. - for reference price you can use this site - it has very good quality proved products but a bit more expensive them directly from China : www.ev-power.eu/index.php?force_sid=s8t8nsgmlmqdkuqp4m98gmavj7&5. Can I mix wet with Lithium ? short answer is NO - complicated one is YES , but it need thinking before hand - e.g. at least you need separation diode block
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Post by johannes on Dec 19, 2019 15:22:46 GMT
The link panoramix provided gives a number of red flags regarding drop-in replacements, so it is definitely worth reading before buying.
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Post by vasko on Dec 19, 2019 15:50:14 GMT
The link panoramix provided gives a number of red flags regarding drop-in replacements, so it is definitely worth reading before buying. all TRUE in the link - just read it carefully - there are a lot good drop-in replacements - the important things is the BMS continuous output as I stated in point 3 earlier . and some real-life experience I use 20AH LiFePo4 for my starting battery for 4.5 years now and extremely happy (a LOT BETTER turning then 105ah wet) - full drop in- no BMS at all - this is the actual battery : www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-LiFePO4-12V-20Ah.htmlI also have 2 x 100ah LFP drop in banks with 2 x 100AH BMS - e.g. 200ah continuous - and has been good for all my needs including 12v aircon, been to cup coffe machine, 3KW inverter ( used to power my hot water boiler) - windlass , 20ah drone charging point, 16x tablets, phones and other 4amps usb_B/C , wireless charging points I also have one Varta LFD90 - separated by a diode for reserve(if I manage to kill some of the LiFePo4 banks) and used for the bow thruster all charged from 530W MPPT solars and 600W wind and 50Ah alternator
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Post by vasko on Dec 19, 2019 16:30:38 GMT
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Post by jy51 on Dec 20, 2019 10:31:46 GMT
I have the 3 x 12.9V / 90Ah Super B Lithium Iron Phosphate battery bank as specified by Jeanneau in their option list.
My previous boat had a 500 + Ah battery bank with only one fridge to support, so with two fridges, a freezer, three electric winches and a host of extra luxury kit I was not convinced that Jeanneau had got their sums right. How wrong I was! Yes, lithium are initially expensive to buy, in fact very expensive, however up until now I am impressed.
Next season I will not have to rely on my generator and engine alone as I am having a 216W solar panel fitted. I am under the impression that the way lithium cope with solar, is that you need half the solar capacity, I am looking forward to see just how this solar panel copes.
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Post by alenka on Dec 20, 2019 12:16:12 GMT
Has anyone any cold weather/soak experience with this type of battery. Last winter i wrote off two £500 batteries in a couple of goCycles because they were left in the garage during a cold snap when the temperature dropped below zero for a few days.
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Post by jy51 on Dec 20, 2019 12:55:34 GMT
Alenka,
i don’t believe any battery chemistry likes extreme temperatures, however the operating range of Lithium seems better than lead acid or jell type batteries.
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Post by johannes on Dec 20, 2019 13:18:03 GMT
A lead-acid battery will be destroyed in freezing temperatures if it is discharged or partly discharged, but it is no problem with low temperatures if it is kept fully charged. Car batteries can be used at very low temperatures thanks to the fact that they are always charged.
There has been research in freezing lithium ion batteries to below -150 degrees C, with no detrimental effect. But they may be damaged by charging at low temperatures, and obviously cannot be used at such low temperature.
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Post by alenka on Dec 20, 2019 20:14:52 GMT
My understanding too was that Lithium batteries were far more robust than standard lead acid so it came as a surprise when my two, newish, goCycle e-bike batteries gave up the ghost so quickly*. Even more so as these were my second set of e-bikes and the first, although quite cheap, never gave any battery problems despite being consigned to the garage year round.
My understanding is that extreme heat is more likely to kill a Lithium battery than extreme cold? But it seems goCycle tend not to agree.
Either way this has led me to believe that if you do go down the Lithium road you must be aware that a certain level of nurture may be required in extreme weather conditions. And, unfortunately, if you get it wrong you can right off a set of very, very expensive batteries very easily.
As my boat is left for months on end in Greece where temps can easily reach above 40c in summer and sub-zero in winter I tend to be hesitant about such a large investment being left to the ravages of mother nature.
*Last year I was recommending the virtues of goCycle as a yacht based e-bike. Both the frame and electronics are designed to withstand the harsh marine environment but it seems the batteries cannot cope with even an English winter unless they are stored in a temperature above 5c. Hate to think how long they would last in Canada or some of the colder states of the USA.
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Post by moonshadow on Dec 21, 2019 0:23:46 GMT
For whatever this is worth.... while testing the firefly carbon foam batteries the practical sailor magazine folks left a set out all winter somewhere cold after discharging them deeply and they have since performed well for them. If weight is not a big issue they look like they do most of what lithium batteries will do. Fast charging, no harm from leaving them discharged etc. price varies depending on where you are I suppose. And just like the lithiums they are best treated with appropriate charger settings. I think they are worth looking at.
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Post by jy51 on Dec 21, 2019 7:55:07 GMT
My understanding too was that Lithium batteries were far more robust than standard lead acid so it came as a surprise when my two, newish, goCycle e-bike batteries gave up the ghost so quickly*. Even more so as these were my second set of e-bikes and the first, although quite cheap, never gave any battery problems despite being consigned to the garage year round. My understanding is that extreme heat is more likely to kill a Lithium battery than extreme cold? But it seems goCycle tend not to agree. Either way this has led me to believe that if you do go down the Lithium road you must be aware that a certain level of nurture may be required in extreme weather conditions. And, unfortunately, if you get it wrong you can right off a set of very, very expensive batteries very easily. As my boat is left for months on end in Greece where temps can easily reach above 40c in summer and sub-zero in winter I tend to be hesitant about such a large investment being left to the ravages of mother nature. *Last year I was recommending the virtues of goCycle as a yacht based e-bike. Both the frame and electronics are designed to withstand the harsh marine environment but it seems the batteries cannot cope with even an English winter unless they are stored in a temperature above 5c. Hate to think how long they would last in Canada or some of the colder states of the USA. I think Lithium batteries are like any other manufactured product, there are good ones, and there bad ones. In the past I swore by Trojan wet batteries having had a house bank that lasted for over 12 years, when replaced by the same batteries, one of them died on me within 6 months.
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Post by alenka on Dec 21, 2019 9:06:24 GMT
I would tend to agree you get what you pay for except.... The goCycles use state of the art Panasonic batteries I believe. A new goCycle will set you back around £4,000 ($5,000). My first e-bikes cost around £600 ($800) and probably used cheap Chinese batteries. Whilst the electronics on one gave up the ghost and cannot be repaired/replaced the batteries have proved to be very sturdy. goCycle did change my batteries at a reduced price because they had been used only lightly but the total cost was still over £1,000. Sorry. I don't mean to go on about e-bikes. but battery technology is important in all walks of life these days and big a priority for most boat owners. Yachts today run fridges, freezers (24/7), toasters, coffee machines, GPS chart plotters, etc., etc. There is nothing worse than coming to a boat that is effectively dead in the water. Moonshadow, I had never heard of these batteries. Interesting but as you say weight is a drawback. oceanplanetenergy.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/firefly-energys-oasis-group-31/
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Post by vasko on Dec 21, 2019 9:43:21 GMT
Has anyone any cold weather/soak experience with this type of battery. Last winter i wrote off two £500 batteries in a couple of goCycles because they were left in the garage during a cold snap when the temperature dropped below zero for a few days. You should nit have issues with Lithium batteries stirred below zero or used below zero - you just need to sure that when you charge then the temperature is over zero I have stored and used my drone batteries in -28 for days and I have stored my M365 scooter for the whole winter in -15 and no issues with both
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Post by jy51 on Dec 21, 2019 9:46:32 GMT
alenka, Wow, didn't realise electric bikes cost so much, like many cruising couples we had our days with the folding bikes. Unfortunately that all came to a tragic end when my wife came off one in Cartagena. Foolishly, she was carrying two plastic bags full of shopping on each handlebar and slid on a ceramic tiled pavement. While she lay there, prostrate on the pavement, blood trickling from a superficial head wound, my first reaction was to check if she had broken the eggs, big mistake, I never lived it down and she refused to get back on a bicycle with small wheels ever again. Our latest mode of off boat transport is Shanks's pony, no battery problems there, but I still feel envious as the neighbour with the e-bike effortlessly glides by .
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Post by vasko on Dec 21, 2019 9:48:43 GMT
I would tend to agree you get what you pay for except.... The goCycles use state of the art Panasonic batteries I believe. A new goCycle will set you back around £4,000 ($5,000). My first e-bikes cost around £600 ($800) and probably used cheap Chinese batteries. Whilst the electronics on one gave up the ghost and cannot be repaired/replaced the batteries have proved to be very sturdy. goCycle did change my batteries at a reduced price because they had been used only lightly but the total cost was still over £1,000. Sorry. I don't mean to go on about e-bikes. but battery technology is important in all walks of life these days and big a priority for most boat owners. Yachts today run fridges, freezers (24/7), toasters, coffee machines, GPS chart plotters, etc., etc. There is nothing worse than coming to a boat that is effectively dead in the water. Moonshadow, I had never heard of these batteries. Interesting but as you say weight is a drawback. oceanplanetenergy.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/firefly-energys-oasis-group-31/Just buy only Xiaomi - really impressed by the quality of all Xiaomi stuff. - the new N365 Pro can climb almost any hill in Greece with me in it and my weight is 130kg
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Post by svejk on Dec 31, 2019 0:13:51 GMT
We made the switch last year and went from AGMs to Relion LiFePO4s. Also upgraded my charger/inverter but haven't made the move to replace the alternator yet as the starter bank is still AGM.
They're not cheap but they're soooo much better than the lead route. Even Nigel Calder is moving to lithium. I replaced my anemic two 105aH AGM house bank with two 300aH Relions (RB300). For the same capacity in AGM I'd need about 1200aH and I've got no place to put them. Considerable weight savings as well!
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Post by gre2 on Dec 31, 2019 2:23:30 GMT
So it looks like as long as I have an isolator, than I can use lithium batteries for the house batteries and keep my old wetcell batteries for the starting battery. Is that correct?
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Post by svejk on Dec 31, 2019 4:15:10 GMT
So it looks like as long as I have an isolator, than I can use lithium batteries for the house batteries and keep my old wetcell batteries for the starting battery. Is that correct? First, check your charger to see if you have a lithiun profile. You also need to do the same with your alternator. Overcharging lithiums is bad (though a BMS should prevent it) and with very little internal resistance a lithium battery can quickly smoke a dumb altenator.
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Post by gre2 on Dec 31, 2019 15:21:59 GMT
Don't know about the alternator. Its the alternator that is supplied with the boat and I have a SO 37 2001. Same with the charger.
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Post by svejk on Jan 1, 2020 17:40:33 GMT
I've got a '02 SO37 with the Volvo Penta MD2040D. I would strongly discourage hooking your Lithiums up to that alternator. You may want to consider an automatic charge relay instead which would charge the batteries from the starter battery first instead of directly from the alternator. I upgraded to the Victron Multiplus 12/3000 (slightly smaller than the 12/2000 believe it or not) which has a Lithium profile. My Xantrex Freedom did not have the profile but depending on your battery choice your BMS could potentially manage that for you but you have to be careful of the float charge.
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Post by Bora on Jan 2, 2020 1:59:21 GMT
I have the 3 x 12.9V / 90Ah Super B Lithium Iron Phosphate battery bank as specified by Jeanneau in their option list. My previous boat had a 500 + Ah battery bank with only one fridge to support, so with two fridges, a freezer, three electric winches and a host of extra luxury kit I was not convinced that Jeanneau had got their sums right. How wrong I was! Yes, lithium are initially expensive to buy, in fact very expensive, however up until now I am impressed. Next season I will not have to rely on my generator and engine alone as I am having a 216W solar panel fitted. I am under the impression that the way lithium cope with solar, is that you need half the solar capacity, I am looking forward to see just how this solar panel copes. I'm looking at options for lithium batteries to replace my 5x Rolls 125(?). I have a similar setup to you but with one less freezer and already have 600W of solar.....so interesting to hear that 3 x 90Ah is keeping up with your needs. How long are you currently having to run the generator? What size is it? Are you using an inverter much? If so what do you have?
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