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Post by iwalani on Nov 6, 2019 20:16:25 GMT
I am about to order a new SO 389 for Spring delivery. My wife and I mostly day sail and occasionally weekend. We are performance oriented so I am ordering the standard main with an electric halyard winch. and the code zero with furler.
I am strongly in favor of the deep keel but the the dealer is advising me that the shoal keel is much better for resale. While I recognize that resale is an important consideration, I am buying this boat for me, not the next owner. We sail on Long Island sound so depth is not much of a concern for a 6"5" draft.
The deep keel comes with a single rudder instead of 2. Should that be a consideration in the decision?
Is what I anticipate to be better performance from the deep keel worth the possible resale compromise?
We have not inked the deal yet so can anyone advise me what percentage from list price would be a fair discount on a cash deal with no trade?
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Post by Chris Meyer on Nov 6, 2019 20:53:16 GMT
I can't help you with sailing in Long Island, but would like to share stories about the 389 next Summer!
We ordered ours in August and it should be delivered in a couple months.
We sail in the Great Lakes and so the shoal keel is the best. At least here, i suspect the market is better for the shoal keel.
We had a Beneteau 321 prior for 20 years with the shoal keel and furling main. I have been sailing for decades and would not buy another boat without a furling main. You mention you and your wife mostly day sail and on the weekends. I do agree you will get slightly better performance with a standard main, but the furling main is so much easier to reef which we do often even here on Lake St Clair.
We also opted for the code 0 (never used one before), bow thruster, AC, folding transom, Offshore electronic pack, excellence pack, interior cloth upgrade, folding prop, rub rail, electric head.
Chose not to get the electric halyard winch since not needed for a furling main (sail goes up once a year).
Will be painful when we see it on the hard in january and waiting for the snow to melt!
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Post by Chris Meyer on Nov 6, 2019 20:56:47 GMT
One more question.
Have you guys ever sailed a boat with a furling main?
Some people don't like them since they can jam if not adjusted correctly.
Like I said in my first post, I would not buy another boat without it. Makes single handed sailing especially easy!
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Post by Don Reaves on Nov 6, 2019 21:11:16 GMT
Personally, I'd go with a deep keel if my cruising area allowed it. I have a shoal keel on my SO35, and I feel like its sailing characteristics would be better with a deep keel -- better pointing and less tender. Being on Lake Ontario near the St. Lawrence River makes a deep keel inadvisable for me.
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Post by iwalani on Nov 6, 2019 21:16:34 GMT
I never owned a furling main but there are many of them in our yacht club. I do not know anyone who has not had a problem with jamming at one time or another. I have been told that a lot of that comes from not taking care to furl the main properly . But as a sailor's technique improves over time, the sail begins to stretch and jamming problems result again.
I understand that reefing is much easier but I am mostly concerned with sail shape and performance.
Good luck with your new boat and thank you very much for the reply. Will be happy to exchange stories next season.
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Post by vasko on Nov 7, 2019 9:58:45 GMT
I would go with deep keel and non-furling main - but make sure you have third reef on main...
One of the down side for me is the missing third reef on my main - this way in really strong winds - 30+ I do not get the main out at all ...
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Post by johannes on Nov 7, 2019 10:21:57 GMT
I have sailed two boats with furling main (a Hanse 371 and an Elan 434) and they were absolutely terrible. But both were without vertical battens. With battens I suspect it is different.
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Post by Chris Meyer on Nov 7, 2019 13:44:37 GMT
That is the beauty of this that we can order what we like.
Hope you enjoy your 389 and we should swap stories next summer!
Chris
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Post by sailbleu on Nov 7, 2019 14:19:56 GMT
What's the point of giving people advise when they already have made up their mind ?
I have a shallow keel and furling main and would not go for a short keel anymore. I've grounded more than deep keel boats due to pushing the envelope of trying to get closer to that inviting beach . I need at least 60° to the wind , not to speak about a broach , short keel remember
Make me choose between a standard main that needs to be reefed in a storm with the risk of being thrown overboard whilst dancing around the mast , ...or furl the main in the safe and secured environment of the cockpit , my choice is made .
Furler problem of the main are usually caused by an out of shape sail , have it re-cut or replace it and all worries are gone. It's always an issue getting the sail out , not in , important element .
Regards
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Post by johannes on Nov 7, 2019 14:31:14 GMT
A standard main with standard reefs can jam or break too, so I don't think that should be the argument. The better argument is performance. If you want performance to the level where you may consider entering club races in my opinion a furling main is out of the question.
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Post by Chris Meyer on Nov 7, 2019 14:46:34 GMT
What's the point of giving people advise when they already have made up their mind ? I have a shallow keel and furling main and would not go for a short keel anymore. I've grounded more than deep keel boats due to pushing the envelope of trying to get closer to that inviting beach . I need at least 60° to the wind , not to speak about a broach , short keel remember Make me choose between a standard main that needs to be reefed in a storm with the risk of being thrown overboard whilst dancing around the mast , ...or furl the main in the safe and secured environment of the cockpit , my choice is made . Furler problem of the main are usually caused by an out of shape sail , have it re-cut or replace it and all worries are gone. It's always an issue getting the sail out , not in , important element . Regards Agree, but sometimes people want confirmation of their already made up minds! Purists don't like furling mains, but I have found as you have that these are much easier to handle. I have also found that the boom angle is critical for a furling main along with proper furling before going in for the day. I also think the twin rudders on the 389 will help performance and the reduces the need for the standard keel. Likely this is a purist that wants the standard keel and standard main. Their choice, not mine! |
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Post by sailbleu on Nov 7, 2019 15:37:20 GMT
A standard main with standard reefs can jam or break too, so I don't think that should be the argument. The better argument is performance. If you want performance to the level where you may consider entering club races in my opinion a furling main is out of the question. Fully agree , but then I always give my opinion from the point of view of being a cruiser not a racer. Each his/her own , of course . Regards |
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Post by rc sail on Nov 7, 2019 16:49:19 GMT
Iwalani. if you foresee any competitive sailing (racing) a deep keel will give you better up wind performance.
I see no one has weighted in on your pricing inquiry. As a cash buyer with no trade you should be in good negotiating position. Jeanneau use to have a "hot sheet" of completed boats in Marion SC with good discounts available to dealers.
As I recall discounts were in the area of $35,000. Don't know if the "hot sheet" is still available to dealers. Your best pricing would usually be during a boat show but if you are looking for a spring delivery date that is probably not a
option for you. I would try to locate 389's at other US dealers and try to confirm their sale price for comparison and
for negotiating price with your dealer. Keep in mind your dealer will be enjoying some $10-$12,000 in commission fees.
When I brought my 15 44ds which was new I had about 6 weeks of back and forth with price negotiations. But delivery time was not a factor as the dealer had the boat in their yard since the January boat show. That said I would do some back and forth with dealer on pricing. All the best with your new boat purchase.
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Post by Chris Meyer on Nov 7, 2019 18:32:16 GMT
I am about to order a new SO 389 for Spring delivery. My wife and I mostly day sail and occasionally weekend. We are performance oriented so I am ordering the standard main with an electric halyard winch. and the code zero with furler.
I am strongly in favor of the deep keel but the the dealer is advising me that the shoal keel is much better for resale. While I recognize that resale is an important consideration, I am buying this boat for me, not the next owner. We sail on Long Island sound so depth is not much of a concern for a 6"5" draft.
The deep keel comes with a single rudder instead of 2. Should that be a consideration in the decision?
Is what I anticipate to be better performance from the deep keel worth the possible resale compromise?
We have not inked the deal yet so can anyone advise me what percentage from list price would be a fair discount on a cash deal with no trade?
I forgot to address the other point you made. The deep keel comes with a single rudder. When a boat is well healed, the second rudder will be nice. Sort of up to you as you read the threads.
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Post by alenka on Nov 7, 2019 19:21:19 GMT
My last boat was a smallish Hunter Legend which are famous for their shallow winged keels. They go very fast for their size but also a little tender in the water and too keen to heel for long cruises.
You say this is a long term boat for you - Are you going to be happy with your cruising ground in a few years time or will you get itchy feet and want to do the Bahamas/Caribbean where depth of water is quite shallow in many places?
As you are happy with a standard main I will not comment on in-mast.
Whatever your decision I hope you enjoy.
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Post by jdl01 on Nov 7, 2019 19:25:15 GMT
I sail a deep keel/single rudder 379. As a retired successful racer, I did not want to sacrifice performance for convenience of roller reefing or shallow draft.
The single line reefing with lazy jacks and a boom bag is easy and safe - you do not need to leave the cockpit. In my mind, the main advantage of roller furling is you do not have to leave the cockpit and flake the sail when you put it away. On bigger boats that sail in windier environments than the pacific northwest, the shear scale of the gear and sails makes roller reefing attractive if you don't pursue any serious racing.
I have sailed two different 379 deep keels, one with twin rudders. There is no noticeable performance benefit with twin rudders and the twin rudders do not perform as well under low speed powering as you do not get immediate prop flow over the rudders as you do with a single rudder. The drawback to the latter is that drawing nearly 6 feet, it is vulnerable when dry setting the deep keel on land or floating lifters, as the 379 does not balance well on the keel bulb and rocks back onto the rudder.
With full tankage and gear aboard, the 379/389 actually draws 7 feet, so don''t try to cut it too fine in shallow areas.
Enjoy your new boat, I think is is a good choice.
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Post by Chris Meyer on Nov 7, 2019 19:39:48 GMT
You enjoy your boat as well.
I think the inside dimensions of the 389 are similar to the 379 you sail, but some nice interior improves inside and also the bowsprit.
Will be fun to exchange views next year!
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Post by zaphod on Nov 8, 2019 15:29:15 GMT
In my area shoal draft is a big negative for resale value. Definitely buy the boat for YOU not the next owner. I don't see the point in buying performance options like classic main and code zero, and then "crippling" that performance with a shoal keel.
Don't worry, when the time comes to sell, there are plenty of buyers who want the deeper keel. I think your broker is talking out his ass!
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Post by jcoughlin on Nov 10, 2019 2:53:07 GMT
Deep keel would be my choice, there is a significant difference in upwind ability with the deep keel.
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Post by renegade27 on Nov 24, 2019 0:12:37 GMT
If you are interested in performance, definitely go for a deep keel (and 6'5" isn't so deep). I have a shoal keel and am often frustrated at the performance upwind and in heavy weather handling (roundups).
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goggoll
Junior Member
Posts: 13 
Jeanneau Model: 410 Performance
Yacht Name: Arabella
Home Port: St. Clair Shores, Michigan
Country: USA
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Post by goggoll on Nov 26, 2019 1:32:44 GMT
Gentlemen, we got our new 389 in June. One of those un-sailable models: shoal keel and furling mail sail. On our end-of season sail on Lake St. Clair we had her do 8.7 knots in 16 -18 knots of wind - very easy to handle. We are no racers. So what else do you need?  |
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Post by rene460 on Nov 26, 2019 9:50:28 GMT
Hi Goggall,
Congratulations on your purchase and welcome to the forum. You will find plenty of likeminded sailors here.
Both the furling sail and the shoal draft features are built because they each have their place in the wide range of activities we sailors follow.
We have a shoal draft because it greatly extends our opportunities on our home waterway. But we chose a conventional mainland would have preferred the performance main. You see, we came from a performance boat which gave us so much fun for twenty years, and only sail in very light winds. Unfortunately shoal draft and performance rig is not offered. I have to feel it is for good reason, but with our previous experience and willingness to reef early it would have been interesting to us.
I don’t really know Lake StClair, though I did at one time live in a small town on the St Clair river. Even went sailing in the river, but in a dingy. But to extend your reach into shallow waters, rivers and creeks, as we say on these lakes, draft is king, and what you have chosen will be great.
With our small boat we are very happy with the conventional rig as it is quite easy for us to handle, and the single line reefing is completely operable from the security of the cockpit, but on a larger boat I can see the advantages of the furling main. There are lots of posts here on the forum that will help you get the best out of it.
I am sure it will give you many years of fun sailing. Enjoy reading the previous posts in the winter evenings fast approaching.
rene460
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Post by alenka on Nov 26, 2019 9:56:50 GMT
Goggoll, I bet that brought a smile to your face!
For a lake environment you have probably got the best option. Because I am guessing wave size is rarely a problem shallow draft to reduce weight and drag and easy mainsail handling to make just a quick afternoon sail fast fun without the time consuming effort is the ideal.
We spent years on Lake Windermere (UK) in a Hunter Legend, noted for their very shallow draft but large wing on the bottom of the keel. Once in the sweet spot with the wing doing its thing you could feel the boat lift and accelerate. In fact, she seemed to defy normal boat physics and once in the grove would hold speed with much bigger boats. The downside. Transiting wind accelerations zones, of which there are many from the mountains around Windermere, she would gladly heel so quickly that everything on one side of the cabin would hurtle across to the other side.
Sailing a 36ft Bavaria in the Atlantic waters around the Canary Islands I was pretty glad that the owner had specified the deep Keel version. But she too had her faults. Her rigidity meant that every now and then we would fill the cockpit with water making her a thoroughly wet ride in big winds.
We have a saying here in England.... Horses for Courses. Which might translate into get a boat that's suited to your sailing area not a paper specification!
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Post by Chris Meyer on Nov 26, 2019 20:00:58 GMT
Gentlemen, we got our new 389 in June. One of those un-sailable models: shoal keel and furling mail sail. On our end-of season sail on Lake St. Clair we had her do 8.7 knots in 16 -18 knots of wind - very easy to handle. We are no racers. So what else do you need? Hey Goggoll, We just ordered a 389 and will launch it in St Clair Shores (JB Marina) in the spring. Anxious for the delivery. Glad you like your boat. Yes, we ordered a shoal keel, in mast furling. Best for Lake St Clair. |
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Post by zaphod on Nov 26, 2019 22:59:30 GMT
Gentlemen, we got our new 389 in June. One of those un-sailable models: shoal keel and furling mail sail. On our end-of season sail on Lake St. Clair we had her do 8.7 knots in 16 -18 knots of wind - very easy to handle. We are no racers. So what else do you need? Nobody said shoal draft boats were "unsailable", and I would expect even a shoal draft boat to be able to hit hull speed reaching in 18kts of wind! The difference between shoal and deep keels will be most apparent when sailing upwind. The boat with the classic main is likely to hit hull speed sooner than the furling main just due to the extra sail area it has. Both shoal and furling mains may be worth while compromises depending on the waters you sail in, but make no mistake, they ARE compromises to sailing performance. On wing keeled Hunters....wings are put on shoal draft cruising keels in an effort to get as much of the keel's weight as deep as possible to maximize righting moment. They are not hydrofoils and do not "lift" the boat in any way. Wing keels became a bit of a fad after Australia II took the cup with a winged keel. |
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