SO 440 - Final Countdown

[Fabrice-Erta]

All,

We have just few weeks  to finalise some options for our new 440.

We chosed the heater option without air conditioning, as we will sail mainly in Mediterranean sea, what could be your thoughts.
My wife is easly cold? so will the ait conditionning provide enough heat. At night we don't use cooling just before sleeping to lower the ambiant temp. :-)

We can change for AIR CONDITIONING SYSTEM 230V + GENERATOR LINK option or without Generor Link. Does anyone have information on this.
Speaking with the official dealers does not bring clear responses.

We are thinking of adding an inverter , the one provided in the catalog is at nearly 4K€ and with 2k€ we could swap with a Victron Charger/Inverter. Does this make sens ?  Is it difficult to do it by myself .... 

Many thanks for all your feedback
Fabrice

[Trevor]

Hello Fabrice,

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on ordering such a beautiful yacht. Waiting for delivery will not be easy but I am sure worth it in the long run.

My wife also feels the cold terribly badly. When we purchased our yacht the first job I had to do was install a Webasto Diesel heater. The installation was quite involved but it is worth it as we can very quickly raise the temperature of below decks space if ever my wife gets troubled by the cold. We are ok as long as we have a way to get warm and the heater provides that security. It operates quickly and easily. Ours is a little bit noisy but that is a small price to pay for that security.

I am not sure what the factory generator and air conditioning consists of. Generators are quite personal choices. Some love them, some hate them. You will need to weigh up convenience versus cost and maybe noise at anchor.

We have an 1800 watt inverter. I really think an inverter is very helpfull for us as we charge small items like phones or computers and use the microwave oven for short durations. I do not think you need an inverter charger as the charger that comes with the boat will be quite adequate. If you permanently install the inverter it should be done be a qualified electrician. Some circuits will not be powered by the inverter ( hot water, for instance ) so the splitting of those services should be done by a qualified person.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Trevor

[Fabrice-Erta]

Hi Trevor,

Thanks for your feed back.

Does anyone has a 440 with the factory Generator   ? What is the REX  ?

If I understand well : 
Water heater requires either Boat Engine or 220V supply => Inverter ? or Solar Cell ?

As many of US boats came with air conditioning can some give me an idea of the average consumption and how they solved this .

regards
Fabrice

[alenka]

Hi Febrice,

I think most people may opt for air-con and no heating in the MED.  We have had our boat in Greece coming up 6 years now and rarely feel the need for heating, but very often for cooling, when the temps can hit 40c in summer and you just cannot get any airflow.  On such nights we always hunt out a quayside with electric power, cooling down at anchor with no wind to blow through the hatches is no fun at all for sleeping. 

Although our system will heat too we find on those few occasions when we need a bit of heat it is quicker just to put a gas ring on for 10 minutes.

Our air-con uses around 700 watts in cooling mode once it is running but most seem to create a huge power spike at start up and will trip out many a generator unless you have a 'soft-start' option on the air-con. I seem to remember it uses more power on a heat cycle.

Only just a couple of weeks ago in souther Spain temperatures were hitting 24c so unless you are living aboard through the winter I am not so sure you really need too much heat. But of course 'we' are from northern Europe where 24c is considered a hot summer day!!

[Fabrice-Erta]

Hi Alenka

thank you so much for your feedback.
For sure 24°C is just the poinnt were we start to feel good....We are usee to warm countries,even desert but the feeling is different inside a cabin.
I understand that having a generator to cool down for 2 /3 hours in the evening will be a good solution to avoid anchoring in quayside.
700 w doesnt seems so much but almost half the capacity of an inverter.
I assume that having. Lithium + Solar cells wont be enough.

fabrice

[rene460]

Hi Fabrice,

Congratulations on the new boat, you are in for many great adventures.

I have no experience of Mediterranean weather, but many others can help there. As with others, my wife feels the cold so heating is important, though extra clothing is always an option. Cooling is more difficult to achieve.

You have asked many interesting questions about generators and inverters. The answers are quite complex if they are to be complete.

Remember that inverters are just voltage changing devices, they do not produce energy, but must get it from somewhere, the battery, which in turn is charged by solar or wind.   Even a 150 watt load, which is tiny for a shore power supplied 220V system, will be drawing over 12 amps from your batteries. OK for a microwave for a few minutes but not for long term. Ideal for using your mains powered chargers for computers etc. rather than many12V outlets. I would suggest it would be impractical for a 700 watt air conditioning system, you would need a very large solar system to keep up with the load on your batteries. As the inverter involves connections to the 220 V circuits, it is strongly recommended that you do not attempt to do it yourself.

On the generators, I don’t know the REX unit, someone else may be able to help there. The Link feature is necessary if you ever want to run two alternators together as the AC wave forms have to be synchronised every time you start them, before the parallel connection is made. I am not sure if you can add this feature later if you want to, but it is not necessary for a single alternator installation. I am not sure how many sail boats have more than one generator.

A generator is a good option for times of the year or weather patterns when your solar panels do not provide enough energy. The main disadvantage is noise when it is running, but it may be more practical than having enough solar and battery capacity to never need it. The generator installation requires attention to air supply, cooling and exhaust, so you may want to consider the OEM installation, whether or not you go with A/C. There are many threads on this forum about solar capacity, so some pleasant and interesting reading while you await delivery.

Sizing for the alternator for powering air conditioning is more complex. The a/c compressor motor will briefly draw several times it’s rated current and at least twice it’s rated power briefly when it comes on. Then it will continue to draw draw more than it’s rated power until the evaporator gets down to temperature due to the higher pressure in the evaporator when at higher than rated temperature. I would confidently say that that 1000 W generator will not be adequate for a 700 watt a/c unit. I would expect at least a 2 kW generator, but I would buy the a/c and the generator at the same time, so the supplier is responsible for the sizing, and preferably the installation. I would suggest that you consider including these with your boat order, rather than try to add them later.

I hope that is a help with some of your questions. I look forward to hearing what you decide and how it all goes.

Rene460

[alenka]

I think trying to run air-con or heater from an inverter will quickly drain your batteries. With AC it is not just the compressor you are running but also water pumps and fans too. However, if you are happy to run the system while you are motoring into anchorage, for say 30 mins or so, with the boat all closed up the alternator/battery/inverter may work.

You will need a soft start for the aircon.

I have yet to come across a Genset that was quiet enough to run while sleeping. Well not one I could afford.

Good Luck.

[Fabrice-Erta]

THanks René .

Just few words / precisions :
I used REX for Return of EXperience ( may be a bad rench wording - )
Regarding electricity i am quite confident in doiing by my self having done electrical engenner study. 
I totally agree with your figures and remarks. The factory generator. 7.5 kw so plenty of energy to run Air cond and more....
Reading this forum and many others, i am still wondering if a solar installation would be able to provide enough power with 2x200w panels. I believe not....


Alenka :
agree with you as well. I am just tring to be 100% sure that it is the best compromise. Having done 10 days on a Lagoon 620 , the noise was very low, Onan genset , similar to the 440 option. 

Fabrice

[rene460]

Hi Fabrice, no need to worry about your expression, it is just an abbreviation I am not familiar with.  Probably me and social media perhaps.

We have only a 55 watt panel and it is about 20 years old, a historical relic from a previous boat.  It just about does what we need, which is why I have not added to it.  It is definitely not enough for swinging at anchor or overnight sailing.  It is just that as lakes sailors, we usually day sail and have shore power in our pen at night.  The extra batteries we installed hold our needs for about two nights out depending on sunshine and how much motoring, but 55 W is a waste of time if you are starting out.  The panel works well to maintain our batteries when we are not on board as the marina does not allow boats to be left plugged in, but even for that I would install more if starting today.

How much you really need depends very much on your style.  Some people have water makers, hair driers, microwaves and bean to cup coffee makers, and end up needing a very large system.  The fridge is the main consumer that is hard to do much about.  With LED lighting, especially the anchor light,  iPads, instruments, radio and a phone, 2 by 200 Watts would be a great start, obviously supported by enough battery capacity to take all the excess power during the day, and last through the night, but will probably need keeping an eye on the battery voltage.  The auto pilot is the one I don’t know much about, but it may also be important if you do much overnight sailing.  Use a big enough MPPT charge controller to allow you to add some more panels if required.  How much you get from the panels each day is a bit weather dependent, but for some initial estimates assume about 5 to 6 hours a day for panels mounted flat.  Despite the pictures in all the brochures, most places get the occassional cloudy day, especially in winter, even in this country.  That, and hot water without running the main engine is where it becomes reasonable to consider the generator instead of a very large system.  It is nice to have decks clear to walk on cabin top for folding sails and so on, and you do rapidly run out of unshaded space suitable for solar panels.

 So much to consider with a new boat, but extra  batteries and solar panels can always be added later if the initial installation is a bit small.

rene460

[jy51]

Hi Fabrice,

To answer your questions I believe it depends on your style of sailing and the depth of your pocket.  We like to spend the summer months sailing and anchoring around the Mediterranean seldom using marinas or ports.  During this period the most important things are power and water, neither available once away from the pontoon.  Our priority when choosing our boat was a good battery bank, an inverter and a means to keep them charged, along with a desalinator to make water and of course a means to power the water-maker.  

Although my wife also suffers from the cold, and we do intend returning to the boat early in the season, we will be in the marine, so the purchase of a few inexpensive oil filled radiators will work well, however the factory fitted air conditioning does have a reversal facility which we are currently using in the evenings in Port Frejus.

At the peak of the season, the Mediterranean anchorages can become very over crowded and this is when we sometimes return to our home base.  Unfortunately August on a marine berth without the advantage of the sea breeze experienced at anchor necessitates the need for air conditioning.

We have gone for the Jeanneau installed reverse air conditioning which although seemingly expensive, saves all the major installation problems when retro fitting.  We chose the Lithium house batteries and the inverter. The water-maker will work on the 12 volt batteries while running the engine or with a generator on 230 volts.  We also went for the 8 kw generator so we can charge batteries, heat the water and run the water maker when nessasery.  My only retro fit item will be solar panels, these I will fit at the end of the first season when I have a good idea of my consumation needs.

I fully understand your comments regarding the cost of factory installed items like inverters, generators and water makers, however, when you see the amount of work and extra items required for the installation you start to understand where the money goes.  In my case the thought of having my boat disrupted for weeks on end installing and altering the existing fittings just wasn't worth the possible cost saving. 

[Fabrice-Erta]

Hi JY51,

All your words make sense. At the present stage,  we are not so much used to long sailing period. I am anticipating a longer usage when decreasing working activity -

As far as I can see , we are coming to the same conclusion.... and will make similar choice. Great help. Thks a lot.

I am planning to sail next Saturday, may be we can share a drink if you are around there. 

Fabrice

[jy51]

"maybe we can share a drink"  Fabrice you obviously don't know the British (or maybe you do!), thats like a red rag to a bull, of course we would love to share a glass or two with you and yes we should be on our boat next Saturday. Our berth expires the following Tuesday but I think if the space is still available we will stay a little longer while we have a few snagging jobs finished by Chantier Naval Frejus.    

[Fabrice-Erta]

Great ...
Can you give me the dock number ? There not so many boats actually but this willl be simple.
I am in C50 Opposite to the capitainerie.
Will send my phone in MP 

Fabrice

[fakinx]

Just my thought on excessive power peak drain:
I use Victron Multi 2kW charger/inverter on my SO42 DS. It has built-in logic to overcome those peaks from battery and essentially never had shore fuse tripped again. It's also capable of accepting multiple charge sources (providing properly configured) so I'm very happy with it. Cost of it is roughly 1k € with some cabling and stuff. Did it all by myself. Totally capable for water heating (1,5kW) but not for too many devices on at the same time along with WH.
For other matters:
Never thought of installing heating nor AC in my boat (although I probably should). Boat is on Adriatic and not too warm in summer, in winter I'm usually at pen and use blowing heater radiator (convector) if that's correct expression. For day sailing and some fishing in winter I just don't need heating. I'm also avoiding using any open flame because of CO concern except for cooking.
For normal usage and some peace of mind I installed 2x200W solar panels (over the stern) and yield is around 150-180 Ah per sunny day in summer season. Not that much, really. In winter more than sufficient to keep batteries topped up even during a longer periods of gray sky. I also choose separate MPPT for each panel to minimize shading problems and gain ability to charge different banks in case ever needed.
Battery bank was expanded to 1000 Ah just to have enough reserve and not to drain batteries to much on high usage times and, sorry me, they are still lead-acid flooded but tubular. Found a great space under the floor just behind bilge compartment.
I also can not imagine using AC and/or water maker without decent genset. Maybe with some huge alternator or two but then again you need to keep motor running during that times which is even noisier than genset.

I hope you'll end up with good price/performance/need option which will serve you through the years well.

Best of luck!

[Fabrice-Erta]

Hi Fakinx,

Your comments are well appreciated :-)

Taking into account all the tread below, I can resume with :
2x 200W Solar Cell and Inverter or Victron (which I would have choosed)  is correct for Water Heating and some few other stuff. Needs to upgrade battery ( in size or type)
Having AC in addition requires Genset : lower fuel and noise than boat engine . Gives also more flexibility for all equipment to be working at the  same time.

Fabrice

[fakinx]

You’re welcome 😉
All correct except regarding Victron. My view on that matter is to ditch oem charger and go with Victron multiplus inverter/charger. It’s nice unit of very interesting size (only 2kW model) capable with 80A charging (temperature regulated) and capable of running WH (1,5kW) but only with big battery bank. 3kW model is of different size but with addition of seperate 230V outlet witch is only active on shore power or genset just for fraction more money. Very good option. If I’d do it again 3kW model would be correct option.
Some time ago I did some research regarding AC/ heating solution with diesel driven heat pump. Nothing satisfactory found so decided to build a prototype. Ended only with conceptual drawings and nothing more since diesel driven (reasonable) compressor is next to impossible to source. But that’s completely another story.
Tell me please how you like your boat once received. My wife is looking at it very closely and I’m already holding by my wallet. Ouch.
The only thing I really dislike about 440 is it’s length. 13m exactly. How couldn’t they made it 12,99??? This one cm means roughly 700€ more berth costs annually at least on E Adriatic coast since they charge berths on 1m interval. Not good. On the other end 410 is few cm under 12m so every port captain in my area can have his day since under 12m. I find my 42ft just the right size considering (for now)
Since you studied Electrical engineering it will be a breeze to crack this.
Best of luck!

[Fabrice-Erta]

I am not so aware for other brands but Victron seems to be far above the competitors. SO 440 comes with Cristec elements, this is a good factory but the lack of documentationis a pain point when you try compare features and implements .
The multiplus looks great,i will, consider to change the original cristec charger with the Multi 3kw in a second step.

If you can go with it, just follow Madame...life is so short 😃

I do not need  the delivery to confirm that i will love « her »  


Fabrice

[iain7]

I find it highly unlikely those are truly variable speed inverter units, as the packaging shown does not make the same inverter claim as the web offer. However, I am certain they actually could make you a inverter type window unit, especially if they already make split type inverter units. But for just one or two units, cost would be very high. You would have to be very specific what went into those units, the quietness, the efficiency, input voltage, dimensions and weight all must be agreed upon, and shipping costs calculated.

[Fabrice-Erta]

Hi iain7

thanks for you input. Not sure that to have understood every things.
What is split type inverter, I cannot find the correct french equivalent ....
BTW we went very closed to JY51 config with genset,converter all factory provided. Not the best technical solution but simple and if it fail this is all in Jeanneau’s hands .

[Fabrice-Erta]

Here we are !!!!

The boat has been delivered :-)
SHE is really special. Not enough time to sail as much as I would but 2 trials, one when getting the boat from Port-Frejus to Les Issambres.
Another to test the A3 quantum sail.

At the end only some minor points to be adjusted / corrected. The support from Jeanneau factory was great to deliver the special "deco" we have done. I believe any one could recognize us.
Thanks a lot to Mr SUBERVIE who was very supportive to expose his creations.

A special thanks to JY51 and all his advices especially for the AC which has been successfully tested these last days.....

Waiting for my holidays to  sail more !!!



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