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Post by pipemma on Mar 3, 2019 17:20:19 GMT
This is an old chestnut I know but humour me...
I/we are aiming to make a wooden cockpit table to replace the horrid old white plastic one; off-the-shelf options are all too short, or too wide to allow passage. Howells in Poole have quoted me for 3 sheets of teak or iroko; the iroko is half the price, but even the teak is likely a fraction of what it would cost to buy here in CH, even including postage.
Question 1 is therefore: is the iroko worth a £200 saving in the long term or should I just stick with the teak number I first thought of?
Question 2 is then: would you leave teak untreated, oiled or try and get it to a shine? If a shine, what's the best - longest-lasting - method? 6-7 coats of oil? Or varnish? Boat lives in the Mediterranean sun...
Thanks all! (I won't prejudice you at this stage with my gut feel)
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Post by braders on Mar 3, 2019 19:45:38 GMT
Hi Pipemma
We are thinking of doing the same thing to our 44i which is now in the UK, was in Corfu ... I look forward to the replies - are you replacing the whole table or just the leaves
Stewart
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Post by moonshadow on Mar 4, 2019 1:08:32 GMT
My cockpit table was nicely varnished when I bought the boat. I didn’t want it to be damaged and fade quickly. So I has some nice “shower cap” covers made that for lerdsctlybwith the same material as the dodger etc by the same canvas shop. Was not very expensive and the tables still look great.
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Post by rene460 on Mar 4, 2019 5:30:14 GMT
Hi Pipemma,
My wife decided to first stain then oil the wood on our cockpit table when it was new. I think it still looks good, but I checked with her before writing, and she said she would not use the stain again, it was too hard to apply (in place) without making a huge mess. She suggests just teak oil. Probably needs oiling again, but it is eight or nine years since it was done. We would not use varnish as in our experienced none of them are really UV stable, so look bad of not regularly sanded and decorated.
We did have a wheel cover made matching the dodger and Bimini, which covers the wheel, instruments and folded table, so it is only in the weather when we are actually on board. And always with whatever shade is provided by the Bimini. We don’t cover it at night or anything while on board, but the table is normally folded as it can’t stay up while sailing.
rene460
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Post by pipemma on Mar 4, 2019 11:11:38 GMT
Hi Pipemma We are thinking of doing the same thing to our 44i which is now in the UK, was in Corfu ... I look forward to the replies - are you replacing the whole table or just the leaves Stewart
Definitely the whole table, no real point otherwise, aesthetically IMV. Thinking how to replicated the bins - I reckon I might get the steel guy to create a couple of boxes to affix underneath? I also want a way of housing the binoculars
The problem with the existing table is people keep sitting on the leaves when they're up and the hinges just aren't strong enough. As a result the leaves have been drilled for screw holes about 6 times, and the problem is never solved. I'm going to go for sth like this instead:
The question is still - teak or iroko? Is teak always the best if you can stretch to it? Is there any merit to iroko other than price? Handling differences? Finish? Durability? I don't want to have to do this again! But I don't mind doing a coat of oil a couple of times a year
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Post by pipemma on Mar 5, 2019 10:36:32 GMT
Hmmm I've now been informed that the wood would be supplied in 6-inch wide strips that I'd need to glue together and would need an outer border around it to prevent the table warping. Not quite what I had in mind! Any other bright ideas for where I could get sheets of teak (475 and 375 wide respectively)?
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Post by rene460 on Mar 5, 2019 11:35:17 GMT
Hi Pipemma,
I would suggest the only way you will get those widths these days would be to buy teak faced plywood, which would definitely need those edge strips to hide the structure. It has the additional advantage of being less likely to warp. Some chandlers carry pre-machined strips suitable for the edging which you can attach with brass nails or screws. Otherwise it is a simple job with a router to make your own if you have an interest in woodwork. Glue is also possible but more tricky, as the timber is a little oily so hard to glue without special preparation.
I am actually quite surprised that you can get six inch wide even, those timbers are getting harder to get these days.
rene460
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Post by pipemma on Mar 5, 2019 17:42:41 GMT
So I've been googling and YouTubing and reckon I/we can do some joins (himself is very handy, and we've done two property renovations in the last 2 years) but that might tilt the decision towards the cheaper iroko, just in case I screw it up!
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Post by Tafika II on Mar 5, 2019 18:43:58 GMT
We have a factory teak table. We varnished it with 6 coats at commissioning and have applied 2-3 coats every two years or so. We do have a sunbrella cover. The table is sold teak with end caps to prevent warping. VERY happy with the table!
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Post by mikebz on Mar 6, 2019 14:42:07 GMT
I think that ignoring price the choice between iroko or teak will come down to aesthetics. There is a lot of difference between the appearance of 'modern' sustainable teak and what you might find if you search around for some reclaimed wood.
Both iroko and teak are used for planking boats, iroko being described as 'poor man's teak' - its disavantage in this application is that it is more prone to rot and is very straight grained which the rot can travel along quickly, sometimes you get boards of it which rot away to powder (we had this in a wooden boat which was built in 1985). Not that rot would not be an issue with a cockpit table.
Iroko dust has the potential to be particularly harmful, so be well masked when working it (I would do the same with any wood to be honest).
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Post by pipemma on Mar 6, 2019 17:29:23 GMT
Mike, I tried to reply to you on YBW but it keeps kicking me out for some reason... here is more apt anyway.
I've already looked at those, and again everything is too short. Our table is 125 cm long, and the pedestal underneath is only 1 or 2 cm shorter.
Brent's OEM table just above your post looks practically identical to our white plastic one. The leaves therefore have to be lift-up (rather than either fold or slide out), and the grab handles have to be reinstated as they are a major grab point in the cockpit
Brent, that looks great! I wonder if Jeanneau supply them separately? You've inspired me to e-mail my contact at Clark and Carter to ask (especially as there are a couple of niggly spares I need anyway - star on the bow, transom shower covers)
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Post by Tafika II on Mar 6, 2019 18:53:48 GMT
As far as I am aware, the teak and plastic table size and design are identical. The rear handle is difficult to disassemble, but not impossible. The forward handle we had made custom with threaded SS 1/4-20 inserts welded inside the handle ends and bolted in from the bottom with washers. I don't have a drawing as my SS guys, just seems to look at things, measures and make them! It can be removed easily when adding varnish again. If you do decide to go with teak, dry fit it all together, then do the varnish finishing in a garage, spare room or basement. It's a lot easier or more dust free than trying to do it when it is installed.
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Post by mikebz on Mar 7, 2019 8:56:17 GMT
Mike, I tried to reply to you on YBW but it keeps kicking me out for some reason... here is more apt anyway. I refrained from replying here because it seemed that the ready-made ones weren't big enough for your purpose, but I didn't twig that the YBW post was from you as well!
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Post by pipemma on Mar 19, 2019 15:21:04 GMT
I'd been holding off on this because Clark & Carter were asking for me whether an OEM table was available and if so, how much it would cost. Unfortunately the answer to that question is negative, so it's going to be DIY. I've asked the question but maybe someone here knows - when it is suggested that 6" boards glued together will need an outer border to prevent warping, any idea what that outer border would consist of? A 25 mm strip of the same wood all the way round? Or some other solution?
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Post by Tafika II on Mar 21, 2019 21:32:08 GMT
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Post by pipemma on Mar 22, 2019 21:29:25 GMT
Thanks Brent! Been out all day so I'll have a look tomorrow
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Post by pipemma on Mar 25, 2019 13:48:22 GMT
Ah, I guess they get away with just a cross-piece at the end because they've used a dovetail joint. I've ordered up the wood, and the plan is to mitre the corners of the border and jigsaw them into a curve. Fingers crossed! I've gone for the iroko, btw.
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Post by zaphod on Mar 25, 2019 15:50:10 GMT
Our table is varnished, and is kept covered whenever it is not in use. It still looks great after 8 years, although it is due for a few coats of varnish.
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Post by rene460 on Mar 25, 2019 22:31:35 GMT
Hi Pipemma,
I assume your comment that they got away with that cross piece at the end implies that you know about the difference in expansion of timber along and across the grain. I would be concerned about the corner opening up over time if you just use a plain mitre corner.
I know that joint as a glue joint or sometimes finger joint. It gives much more area for the glue to grip but does not actually lock in like a dovetail joint. (Not intending to nitpick, but might help to have the right name if you are using a wood worker to make the table.)
It can be made with a special bit if you have a half inch router. I won’t say easily made, because it’s a bit tricky to get the height setting right so that the top of the boards sit flush. A sliding dovetail across the end is also possible. I have seen furniture made with the cross piece, (usually called breadboard ends), but I don’t know if it has some form of tongue and groove to add glue area, as this is often hidden in the joint detail. More importantly, I don’t really know how they stand up in the long term.
I suspect there is a difference in the understanding of “long term” between furniture makers and boat owners, as the author of a furniture making book I have on my shelves is quite disparaging of anything that “wouldn’t even last 100 years”. That may explain a lot of the issue, or at least give it some perspective. There are so many shades of grey. But I would try and use a glue joint, a loose tongue or perhaps tongue and groove end joint to at least increase the glue area.
rene460
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Post by pipemma on Mar 29, 2019 12:30:51 GMT
I think we're going to stick with the straight mitre joint on the corners, but the plan is to get some decorative brass screws/bolts/maybe even dome nuts and screw the border into the main boards, and make a decorative feature of the fixings. As we're making it ourselves, it's bespoke so we can do what we like
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Post by pipemma on Apr 7, 2019 13:53:17 GMT
Time for an update. I’ve gone for the Iroko, partly because it’s cheaper so if I/we screw up, it’s less money wasted lol And partly because with not much aesthetic difference, why deplete scarce stocks of teak unnecessarily? I ordered the wood from Howells in Poole and they cut it to size and shipped it to me here in Switzerland. The original table has/had a centre section measuring 1250 x 475 mm and two leaves measuring 1150 x 375 mm The centre section of the new table will comprise 3 boards each 150mm wide and 1200mm long The leaves each comprise 3 boards 1100mm long and 100-125-100 wide All 3 sections will have a border all round of 25mm wide and 35mm high to give a 10mm fiddle all round. We’ve spent yesterday afternoon and today gluing the boards together. Pics of progress so far below. (I spent hours Googling and YouTubing on how to glue boards together!)
By tomorrow, all three sections will have had 24-30 hours' drying/curing time and will be ready for sanding
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Post by pipemma on Apr 8, 2019 15:32:54 GMT
Sanding day.
Used a vibrator tool with sanding head, 60 grit paper on all the joints to get them absolutely smooth, 60 & 40 grit on the ends to fine-level them to fit the fiddle/border.
Then the random orbit sander (my new toy, for free using Coop points ) over the flat surfaces, using 60 grit on both sides, then 240 grit on the top surface
The first 3 boards we glued, to make one of the leaves, weren't 100% flush (forgive me, never done this before) so the hand plane came out to get rid of the bulk of the unevenness first on that one panel.
I was very glad I wore a mask! However I'd be grateful if anyone had any tips for how to stop googles or glasses from steaming up while wearing a face mask! Could hardly see a thing a lot of the time!
Also, does anyone have any advice for what to use to de-oil the surface before varnishing? If I even need to...? I've heard of white spirit or acetone, we have white spirit or surgical spirit in the house
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Post by ForGrinsToo on Apr 8, 2019 17:30:04 GMT
Just curious - did you put biscuits or dowel pins between the boards?
Progress looks great.
Geoff
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Post by mikebz on Apr 9, 2019 10:55:12 GMT
I've never degreased Iroko before varnishing (advice on t'internet varies wildly). Teak on the other hand I would investigate what to use as a degreaser. We used to have a wooden boat, built mostly from Iroko. Some of the brightwork I stripped back to bare and saturated with a clear pentrating epoxy sealer (CPES) before varnishing. On the mast (obviously not Iroko) having saturated with CPES I then hot-coated 6-8 coats of 2-pack poly varnish in one day (before the CPES had fully cured - you get a chemical bond between the CPES and the 2-pack varnish). The results were fantastic and incredibly durable - not a cheap solution but worth it for the time & effort that was going into the prep.
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Post by pipemma on Apr 9, 2019 11:01:04 GMT
Just curious - did you put biscuits or dowel pins between the boards? Progress looks great. Geoff
Thanks! No, we didn't. I did think about it briefly but a) biscuits seem to be unusual around here, certainly compared with the US b) we didn't trust ourselves to get dowels in exactly the right place and even 1 mm out would cause major problems. We've used waterproof wood glue and left the panels to cure for 24-30 hours.
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