hillwalker
Full Member
Posts: 40
Jeanneau Model: Sun Odyssey 32i
Yacht Name: Endeavour
Country: UK
|
Post by hillwalker on Feb 7, 2019 11:23:13 GMT
Our recently acquired SO 32i has a holding tank and it's the first yacht we have had that has one. We have her moored on Lake Windermere, (UK). She has a Jabasco twist and lock toilet system.
We have never used a pump-out system and I think we will need to attend to it soon, so I am looking for advice/guidance. I will assume the pump out station will have instructions printed on it for using the actual equipment, but:
a) is there anything I need to know before I use it?
b) do I need to close/open any valves or sea cocks etc to use it?
c) are there any dire warnings I need to heed?
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by freeflow on Feb 7, 2019 13:42:42 GMT
Nothing to fear. Very simple process. No valves to change on the boat. Remove deck fitting, install suction system fitting. Let the vacuum system extract the waste. Not sure what type of pump out system the facility will have but make sure the vacuum tank is not set on discharge so you pump other people's waste into your boat. We usually need to run the system to have it build up some vacuum pressure before pulling the lever to vacuum out your waste
We like to then add 5 or 10 gallons to tank using hose, then pump out again to get a clean flush. Make sure vent is not plugged or the vacuum will collapse the tank.
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on Feb 7, 2019 13:51:46 GMT
Our recently acquired SO 32i has a holding tank and it's the first yacht we have had that has one. We have her moored on Lake Windermere, (UK). She has a Jabasco twist and lock toilet system. We have never used a pump-out system and I think we will need to attend to it soon, so I am looking for advice/guidance. I will assume the pump out station will have instructions printed on it for using the actual equipment, but: a) is there anything I need to know before I use it? b) do I need to close/open any valves or sea cocks etc to use it? c) are there any dire warnings I need to heed? Thanks. Just to add a note of joviality to the thread and not wishing to start a flush of toilet humour, I would suggest the only dire warning would be to stand up wind of the pumping procedure. |
|
|
|
Post by rene460 on Feb 7, 2019 21:50:25 GMT
Hi Hillwalker,
We are also lake sailors and always use the pump out. I can understand your apprehension about the first time, but after a few times it is very routine.
As preparation, first, at your pen, unscrew the deck plug and check. Ours was delivered attached by a small chain inside the pipe, and this must be cut so you can screw in the pump out fitting. Also buy a pack of those thin disposable gloves, select the heavier duty ones, not the ultra thin food prep ones. Also a little container of Vaseline.
Then I suggest a preparatory trip to the pump out to have a look at what is there. We have to screw a fitting into the deck outlet, and then the hose connects to that with a quick connect Camlock fitting. Check that the fittings supplied fit your deck outlet. Here there are two standard thread sizes for the same hose Camlock. Just to be sure, I bought a plastic one to fit my deck plug, which also ensures that I don’t damage the deck fitting if someone has damaged the threads on the one supplied at the pump out.
I would expect the posted instructions at the dock to be adequate, and not necessarily the same as ours.
On our lakes, there are (or were) some hand pumped units. There were a bit fussy about the seal or they would leak enough air to not work. That is what the Vaseline is for. Does not hurt to lubricate the threads a bit to make it easier to screw in and out, even for the electric ones.
Like others, after pumping out, we pump about 50 pump strokes of water through the bowl into the tank and then pump again, and usually repeat this a second time. The issue is the pump out fitting in the tank has the suction tube down to the bottom of the tank. But it does not quite reach the bottom. So the last bit of the tank contents remain behind. Flushing a bit of clean water through after the pump out at least dilutes this last bit so leaves a bit less residue in the tank.
And there are none of our pump out facilities that require you to stand up wind! Overall, providing you have those gloves, a reasonably hygienic operation all things considered.
rene460
|
|
hillwalker
Full Member
Posts: 40
Jeanneau Model: Sun Odyssey 32i
Yacht Name: Endeavour
Country: UK
|
Post by hillwalker on Feb 8, 2019 11:51:39 GMT
Thanks Rene and Freeflow for the reassurances, I will take all of that onboard!
I assumed it cannot be too difficult but had a dreadful feeling that there is plenty of scope for a messy foul-up.
Many thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on Feb 8, 2019 12:00:48 GMT
While still on the subject, a few hints I have heard over the years, hopefully a little more practical than standing up wind! Never add chemicals to try and disguise any odours if you do get smells use an in line carbon filter on the breather. Another tip, which to be fair I have never tried but sounds rather ingenious is to fill the empty holding tank with ice cubes and take the boat for a vigorous sail in choppy water, this is supposed to be a good way of break up any deposits clinging on to the walls of the tank.
|
|
|
|
Post by freeflow on Feb 8, 2019 13:19:36 GMT
Like others, after pumping out, we pump about 50 pump strokes of water through the bowl into the tank and then pump again, and usually repeat this a second time. The issue is the pump out fitting in the tank has the suction tube down to the bottom of the tank. But it does not quite reach the bottom. So the last bit of the tank contents remain behind. Flushing a bit of clean water through after the pump out at least dilutes this last bit so leaves a bit less residue in the tank. And there are none of our pump out facilities that require you to stand up wind! Overall, providing you have those gloves, a reasonably hygienic operation all things considered. rene460 Our marina and area facilities always have a dedicated water hose available for back flushing holding tanks instead of having to pump 50 times on your twist and lock. I do sometimes pour a small amount of bleach directly into the deck fitting then fill the tank with the supplied water hose and Pompano it again to get a cleaner flush of the tank |
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on Feb 8, 2019 13:52:57 GMT
Like others, after pumping out, we pump about 50 pump strokes of water through the bowl into the tank and then pump again, and usually repeat this a second time. The issue is the pump out fitting in the tank has the suction tube down to the bottom of the tank. But it does not quite reach the bottom. So the last bit of the tank contents remain behind. Flushing a bit of clean water through after the pump out at least dilutes this last bit so leaves a bit less residue in the tank. And there are none of our pump out facilities that require you to stand up wind! Overall, providing you have those gloves, a reasonably hygienic operation all things considered. rene460 Our marina and area facilities always have a dedicated water hose available for back flushing holding tanks instead of having to pump 50 times on your twist and lock. I do sometimes pour a small amount of bleach directly into the deck fitting then fill the tank with the supplied water hose and Pompano it again to get a cleaner flush of the tank I am not sure where I heard this and I might be talking out of my "holding tank deck pump out hose" but I was led to believe that the natural enzymes in the tank broke down the contents (I suppose somewhat like a compost heap) and bleaches are not necessary and should not be used. |
|
|
|
Post by freeflow on Feb 8, 2019 14:27:11 GMT
a half a cup of bleach then topped with fresh water then pumped out within a few minutes once or twice a season (especially when I pull the boat out of the water for winter storage) cleans out the stainless. I will replace the "natural" enzymes next time I poo in the head. LOL
been doing this for 20 years .
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on Feb 8, 2019 19:23:55 GMT
a half a cup of bleach then topped with fresh water then pumped out within a few minutes once or twice a season (especially when I pull the boat out of the water for winter storage) cleans out the stainless. I will replace the "natural" enzymes next time I poo in the head. LOL been doing this for 20 years . Free flow, each to his own but the reason it was suggested that bleach was a bad idea is firstly it does nothing and once you start to use the tank again you are back to square one! Also if everyone did the same that small amount of bleach would become a substance amount and not very healthy for the environment or aquatic life, poo on the other hand (talking hypothetically) is quite natural and not harmful. |
|
|
|
Post by freeflow on Feb 8, 2019 19:42:27 GMT
a half a cup of bleach then topped with fresh water then pumped out within a few minutes once or twice a season (especially when I pull the boat out of the water for winter storage) cleans out the stainless. I will replace the "natural" enzymes next time I poo in the head. LOL been doing this for 20 years . Free flow, each to his own but the reason it was suggested that bleach was a bad idea is firstly it does nothing and once you start to use the tank again you are back to square one! Also if everyone did the same that small amount of bleach would become a substance amount and not very healthy for the environment or aquatic life, poo on the other hand (talking hypothetically) is quite natural and not harmful. I get it, but to clarify, I said nothing about releasing it to the environment. The holding tank gets flushed with municipal fresh water and then sucked out with the marina vacuum system (that goes on shore to treatment plant) within a minute of being in there. BTW, I am a Civil Engineer that has designed and built municipal waste water systems  LOL. The tanks sit empty and idle in winter storage for 5 months here. any microorganisms that may be left in a dry tank have died off BTW. I am on the Great Lakes in the USA, there is No Discharge rules here. |
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on Feb 8, 2019 20:51:00 GMT
Free flow, as I previously said, each to his own, I offered an opinion, the great thing about a forum is to hear, although not always agree with ones fell yachtsman.
Some years ago we banned all sodium hypochlorite (household bleach) products in our household. We are not green nerds but simple found we didn’t need all the very expensive and unhealthy bleach based products that are pushed down our throats by TV advertising. We use alternative more health products.
It has been proven that bleach is bad for our environment, yet people are still deeply encouraged by advertising that toilets are the deadliest places on earth and that we must poor gallons of the stuff down the bowl.
It has even been said that neither humans nor micro-organisms benefit from fully destroying the other, if it were a war we would have lost the battle years ago.
When I purchased my previous boat, even the boat builder a well know man in the marine industry gave me the same advice not to use bleach and for the last twenty years I have followed this advice, and have never had a problem with the holding tank.
"Its not like I'm a civil engineer" I assume by your tone, you are a civil engineer and have a different opinion as to pollution, well that fine be me, we are both entitled to have and air an opinion. Others can decide for themselves "To bleach or not to bleach that is the question". I know I was wasted on these forums I should have been a poet!
|
|
|
|
Post by freeflow on Feb 8, 2019 21:39:55 GMT
what do you use other than bleach? interesting.
BTW, I know a local sailor here in the cold that instead of adding the pink stinky anti freeze to his plumbing system in winter, he uses cheap vodka ! then turns the pump on in spring and recollects the vodka for use the next year...
|
|
|
|
Post by Mistroma on Feb 9, 2019 1:04:54 GMT
what do you use other than bleach? interesting. BTW, I know a local sailor here in the cold that instead of adding the pink stinky anti freeze to his plumbing system in winter, he uses cheap vodka ! then turns the pump on in spring and recollects the vodka for use the next year... He re-uses the vodka next year, that's a bit hard core but cheers anyway. Ah, now I see what you meant.  I pump some hydrochloric acid through the bowl, a few strokes and repeat with more acid an hour or so later until I've moved it through the pipe to the tank. I then pump through with water and leave the acid to slosh around the bottom of the tank for another hour or so. I only do this a couple of times during the season, usually during the day when sailing to our next anchorage. It keeps calcification under control in the aft heads. No problem with calcification in forward heads as it does not have a holding tank and we always pump it through with 24 strokes of water after having a pee (it's never been used for anything else). After doing the final acid flush for the year, I usually put some caustic soda solution into the tank and completely fill with fresh water (not salt) and a little washing up liquid. I try to leave this sloshing around as long as possible before emptying and rinsing through with salt water. Caustic will soften "organic deposits" to some extent and remove some from the tank sides. The tank is usually quite clean at lift out a couple of days later. Environmental impact should be negligible. I'm always well offshore and nett result of acid and caustic would eventually be salt and water anyway. Picture below shows what the tank is like in use mid-season. The light is from an LED patch which makes it easy to monitor the level (luckily actual contents are not discernible).  |
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on Feb 9, 2019 7:37:50 GMT
what do you use other than bleach? interesting. BTW, I know a local sailor here in the cold that instead of adding the pink stinky anti freeze to his plumbing system in winter, he uses cheap vodka ! then turns the pump on in spring and recollects the vodka for use the next year... Free flow, if you are talking about the boat holding tank, nothing, we just empty it as often as possible and while sailing fill it with salt water, allowing it to slosh about before emptying at sea. In the home we have found common white vinegar, is cheap and cleans almost everything. Now Vodka! Thats not a bad idea, smells better than vinegar, tastes better than vinegar, would leave glass sparkling and put a smile on my face! |
|
|
|
Post by rene460 on Feb 9, 2019 10:26:48 GMT
Interesting that whenever and wherever boaties get talking, the longest topic is usually toilets. This thread seems to be bringing the issue up to date again. Despite the fact that we all have to deal with the issues every day, there seems no really satisfactory solution, and minimal understanding of the chemistry, so we all do our best and continue to live with the issue the best way we can.
Our Lake pumpout facilities do each have a water hose, but to use it, I have to disconnect the vacuum hose and manage it while I use the water hose to put fresh water in the tank, then reconnect the vacuum hose. Probably would be a good idea instead of adding salt water to the system, but I just do the pumping because that also ensures that the toilet and the hose to the tank are well flushed. If I do that properly after each use, the tank has to be pumped out too often. I have been experimenting with fresh water flushing, using the shower head, no conclusive results yet despite two years, joker valves have a habit of ending trials more quickly than I would like, hope it’s not the fresh water.
I used to use the blue chemical that is sold under many names. It seems to play no part in breakdown of solids or paper (you get way too much information emptying the ports poti on a trailerable over many years), don’t know if it is antibacterial in any way, it probably is, and seems also to be a deodorant.
About 3 years ago, the local hire fleet operator suggested a biological product, supposed to be more environmentally friendly. But for him the main issue is that in operating his fleet, he pumps out about eight boats a week and the biggest and most persistent problem he has is blocked systems. Too many inexperienced users of course, but since changing to the new product he has has had nearly no problems. It’s probably no use quoting the manufacturer, a small company in one of our northern states, so I don’t know how widely it is available, and besides, it is on the boat, but worth looking out for alternatives at your chandler. My sister in law won’t use it because it’s brown, even though it only goes in the holding tank. Price is higher per litre, but you use a much smaller quantity so cost to use is about the same. There is also a green coloured product, but as far as I can see, the colour is the main difference from the blue. Have even tried no chemical, but that definitely results in odour problems after a couple of days, not recommended if you are using the holding tank.
We don’t have a charcoal filter on the vent, so at least we don’t get blockage, and have had no noticeable odour problems with either chemical. But the joker valve is a pain, and would be the first on my list for a technology change if there was one available. Apart from that and the consequent maintenance, the system works fine so long as everyone follows the “nothing you haven’t eaten first” rule, with the addition of “ no cherry stones, even after you have eaten them!”
I have tried vinegar, even soaked used parts with the scale encrustations in a bottle, and no visible dissolving that I can see. Though some people seem to have success with it. I generally avoid bleach, mainly due to the rubber seals, but not really researched the chemistry. And earth friendly cleaning products seem to do the job.
I think that brings me up to date on some recent posts that I have been slow in replying. But it does not feel much like progress. Has anyone tried the electric conversions with a mascerator? Do they solve any of the problems, or just make the maintenance a bigger job?
rene460
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on Feb 10, 2019 10:01:31 GMT
rene460, I can sympathise with your comments on joker valves and blocked toilets.
I'm probably preaching to the converted here and not wishing to chance fate I can put my hand on my heart and say I have never had a blocked toilet, the answer, as everyone should know is never put anything down the toilet that you haven't eaten first, the obvious being toilet paper, and then pump like daddy oh!
The short life of the rubber parts and constant squeeking is normally associated with lack of lubrication due to hard calcium build up caused by residue in the system, hence the need to pump many times.
There is no magical cure to this type of system, even though I constantly try to clear any build up with vinegar and lubricate by putting washing up liquid down the bowl I have had to change the rubber parts every few years.
Having read much about the virtues of electric toilets I have decided the different type of system employed is the way ahead. My new boat is equipped with two electric, quiet flush, fresh water toilets. I was tempted to have one electric and one manual for obvious reasons but decided that if by change both were to be inoperative we would revert to the old "bucket and chuck it" technology that simply can't go wrong unless of course you fall off the bucket.
|
|
|
|
Post by rene460 on Feb 11, 2019 9:19:28 GMT
Hi jy51,
I am afraid that you are correct on the no alternative. We use the cooking oil, vinegar and plenty of Vaseline when installing the maintenance kits, and with luck about two years before I have to do it all again. But in the mean time it works ok, and we do our bit to keep the lakes clean by always pumping out. Without luck the time is shorter. I have an inkling that the time gets shortened if we are away from the boat too long, but we can’t complain about having nice choices.
I will be interested to hear your user report after some time with those electric ones. I have seen a few people put them in but they move on and I don’t hear any more, apart from one skipper I saw recently with one in pieces all over the jetty and in no mood to talk about it, so I am none the wiser.
I suppose replacing the joker valve now and then, and if it has been a long time, the whole kit is not too much maintenance. There are some alternatives in land based caravans, but from what I can see, they are not really suitable for on a boat being tossed around in a see way. But I keep hoping.
rene460
|
|
|
|
Post by zaphod on Feb 11, 2019 18:07:28 GMT
One more caution about using a pump out; make sure the tank vent is clear. One of the first times I used a pump out it seemed to take a while, and I was hearing strange popping and wheezing noises. It turns out that my tank vent was plugged with a mud wasp nest and the suction of the pump was trying to implode my holding tank.
I would also advise that you should pump out the tank every chance you get. You dont want to leave sewage in your tank and hoses for extended periods if you can help it. The smell can and will ultimately find it's way into your boat!
|
|
|
|
Post by Mistroma on Feb 11, 2019 23:57:33 GMT
I must admit that both our heads work well and are pretty smell free. I might be getting to the stage where it would be wise to change the hose on the aft heads. I expect I'll leave it too late and will eventually notice a smell.
Lubrication couldn't be much easier with the twist and lock and I smear a little silicone grease on the O-ring and inside the pump. I pump thoroughly, close the inlet, pump a little warm slightly soapy water through the system and empty the pump, leaving the handle fully up. The top section where you see the lock for the twist & lock simply unscrews to reveal the bottom of the plunger. Tilt the handle slightly to allow any small amount of trapped water to drain into the pump and pull the piston clear. It's simple to wipe and lubricate both O-ring and inside of cylinder. Silicone grease works well and lasts quite a long time. Screwing it back together takes about 20 seconds.
You might lose a small quantity of water onto the floor until you get the technique right. However, it's only a dribble of water with a little washing up liquid (if you pumped well before starting).
The trick is to pump out all residual fresh water, leave handle at very top and tilt the rod as much as possible before finally lifting it out of the cylinder. I believe that I usually tilt towards the rear of the pump as that's where the last drops sit (i.e. on uphillside).
It take probably takes longer to read my description than actually remover the plunger.
|
|
|
|
Post by allegria on Feb 12, 2019 3:09:52 GMT
That's very exciting stuff! I might as well share my procedure with everyone...
I get a maintenance kit for the manual head and replace all bits virtually every year. This guarantees an issue free use of the head for the year ahead. Usually do that just before summer. I use vaseline to lubricate the piston.
I also let 2 litres of vinegar sit in the pump mechanism twice a year... not sure if it really makes a difference.
I also never got any blockage, ever!
Recently, a leak appeared near the lever to flush wet/dry. It turned out the top part of the assembly was cracked.
I ordered a replacement and changed it. All back to perfect operation.
Cheers,
Allegria
|
|
|
|
Post by MalcolmP on Feb 13, 2019 10:54:32 GMT
I must admit that both our heads work well and are pretty smell free. I might be getting to the stage where it would be wise to change the hose on the aft heads. I expect I'll leave it too late and will eventually notice a smell. Lubrication couldn't be much easier with the twist and lock and I smear a little silicone grease on the O-ring and inside the pump. I pump thoroughly, close the inlet, pump a little warm slightly soapy water through the system and empty the pump, leaving the handle fully up. The top section where you see the lock for the twist & lock simply unscrews to reveal the bottom of the plunger. Tilt the handle slightly to allow any small amount of trapped water to drain into the pump and pull the piston clear. It's simple to wipe and lubricate both O-ring and inside of cylinder. Silicone grease works well and lasts quite a long time. Screwing it back together takes about 20 seconds. You might lose a small quantity of water onto the floor until you get the technique right. However, it's only a dribble of water with a little washing up liquid (if you pumped well before starting). The trick is to pump out all residual fresh water, leave handle at very top and tilt the rod as much as possible before finally lifting it out of the cylinder. I believe that I usually tilt towards the rear of the pump as that's where the last drops sit (i.e. on uphillside). It take probably takes longer to read my description than actually remover the plunger. Great minds think alike 🤣🤣 that is exactly what I do too. I occasionally have to change the joker valve, think there was a bad batch a couple of years ago, but Jabsco sent me one FOC when I complained. After 11 seasons with quite a lot of use I fitted a new one last month, nothing was broken on the old one, but it looks much better with all shiny new wood and no aging labels etc. I think these loos must be the best value bit of boaty stuff you can buy. One trick I have learnt when changing the joker is to unbolt the 4 coachscrews so the base can freely move whilst you connect the joker valve housing. If you try to do it while the unit is bolted in position the short pipe doesn't allow movement and it is too easy that it will leak as the faces are not square |
|
|
|
Post by rdubs on Feb 13, 2019 17:15:28 GMT
One best practice I've learned is that after you empty out a holding tank, run this custom concoction down the toilet and into the tank to improve just about everything. I read about this but haven't been able to test this via opening up the holding tanks and verifying how clean they are, but the pieces seem to make sense.
1) Water softener. This will keep any refuse/solids from clinging to the walls of the tank.
2) Liquid laundry detergent: good cleaning properties in general.
3) Calgon bath beads: Add some of these in and it makes the entire head area smell so much better.
Two other items of note:
Vegetable oil: Read that this will help lubricate bearings and moving parts on the macerator and such. I pour a little in every now and then.
Clorox / chlorine: Heard mixed verdicts on this. Obviously, will kill bacteria. But, I've read that it would also kill the "good" bacteria which helps decompose or break down the waste, and you want that process happening.
Also, if you have the choice between pumping out a tank or discharging it to sea (because you're far enough out), discharging it to see will result in a much better flush/emptying, especially if the boat is moving through the water. Also, be sure to leave the overboard discharge valve closed until the holding tank has built up some volume, then flush it out. Only by building up some volume in the tank will it slosh around and prevent buildup, if you just leave the discharge valve open hoping the waste will go directly overboard then waste will start building up on the bottom of the tank because it doesn't get sloshed around. Or so I've heard, never been able to verify.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mistroma on Feb 15, 2019 15:35:21 GMT
I don't know about best practice. If you run it in after emptying it will just drain straight out. I assume you mean that you add it after closing the valve and leave it in the tank until next time it is emptied again. Not certain if you sail in freshwater or saltwater.
Water softener:
Which type do you use? You'd be using a chelating agent such as EDTA or an alkaline material. I'd guess it's the latter and works by alkaline precipitation of calcium carbonate. You really don't want to encourage precipitation of calcium carbonate on surfaces (tank or hoses). Might be OK if the precipitate is colloidal.
I only flush with Sodium Hydroxide at the very end of the season and use fresh water to minimise precipitation of calcium. I prefer this to leaving the tank full of alkaline seawater for several hours.
Liquid laundry detergent:
Probably a mixture of highly alkaline phosphate detergents with a variety of surfactants. I'd might be slightly better than the caustic soda, washing up liquid I use. Less foaming, but I use very little.
I don't see much need to always have some if this sloshing around the tank. However, I can see a benefit for a tank which already has a build up of material.
Calgon bath beads:
I imagine it's a mixture of perfumes and surfactants.
I've never really noticed a smell in the heads so haven't felt any need for something like this yet.
Vegetable oil:[/u]
I know that many people do this on a regular basis when the pump begins to squeak.
Better to just lubricate properly with some silicone grease. It is very easy to do and works well.
|
|
LOL. The tanks sit empty and idle in winter storage for 5 months here. any microorganisms that may be left in a dry tank have died off BTW. I am on the Great Lakes in the USA, there is No Discharge rules here.
