Problematic plotter

[pipemma]

I have a Raymarine eS98 plotter that was new and installed at the end of April 2017 and is still in warranty. Ever since last July, it has kept rebooting every couple of hours and, worse still, it completely freezes for about 5 minutes prior to reboot.

The dealer/installer says they have had it on continuously in their office with no rebooting occurring. They have claimed it's down to overheating and down to duff batteries. I had four brand new batteries in May this year, and the unit still reboots even in the low 20s°C. I've tried in vain to get the dealer/installer to replace the unit under warranty but they won't because they say it runs fine in their office (not really it's designed operating location) (even though surely a warranty replacement won't cost them anything).

I can only think that either the unit is duff, or the installation is not up to scratch? IMO it is up to the supplier to ensure that the thing works and isn't just left as a very expensive piece of junk. Should I escalate to Raymarine themselves?

FWIW they also say the 1.5 kt speed difference between the SOG and log speed - in non-tidal waters - is a matter of recalibrating the tridata, but that doesn't seem quite right to me

Would appreciate your thoughts

[moonshadow]

Not sure if this helps, but, my e95 plotters will occasionally reboot under certain electrical conditions on the boat. It seems that when load is high (loaded electric primary winches) the voltage drops below what the plotter needs to see. Keep us posted as you seek a solution. I am planning on checking wire sizes and connections first.

[vasko]

The dealer is correct that the usual suspect when the plotter freezes and restarts the problem is in the batteries/power supply - it also CAN be the very rarely in the plotter but the first thing to check is the power supply. - the unfortunate things for you is that there are so many, many things that can be wrong with the power supply...   - small batteries, old/damaged batteries, wrong size cables, rusted connection/cables another consumer that can actually generate the problem..... finding this problems is not easy and can be VERY time consuming and annoying task...  

SOG is normal to differ from the log - the SOG is calculated based on GPS coordinates, there is huge margin for erorr etc.  in general you need to compare it with another electronic device that measure the speed using the GPS - but still margin for difference between the two devices is big also... 

[vasko]

Also I seem to remember that you have complained that you have had always electrical issues on the boat and keep in mind that Raymarine chartplotters are not very good at all with electrical issues even very small once... 

[iancymru]

My plotter is not a Raymarine (B&G) and had a similar problem. Not sure if Raymarine the same but mine had a alarm history page and investigating that it had repeated high voltage alarms recorded,(worth checking the alarm log)  I rang the supplier  and they queried it with the manufacturers who sent a link to a software update which I installed and the problem disappeared, not saying its the same thing but worth trying to refresh the software. Wrt the log 1.5kts difference is quite large with no tide, it possible that the log does need recalibrating it worth remembering that GPS speed is slightly historical and the log is live speed so compare when on a steady speed and course, some gps sets allow the operator to dampen the SOG to give a smoother vector over time so it worth checking that as well. Can also compare log to gps speed on phone iPad etc. (kts not mph).

Jun 18, 2018 9:12:44 GMT pipemma said:

I have a Raymarine eS98 plotter that was new and installed at the end of April 2017 and is still in warranty. Ever since last July, it has kept rebooting every couple of hours and, worse still, it completely freezes for about 5 minutes prior to reboot.

The dealer/installer says they have had it on continuously in their office with no rebooting occurring. They have claimed it's down to overheating and down to duff batteries. I had four brand new batteries in May this year, and the unit still reboots even in the low 20s°C. I've tried in vain to get the dealer/installer to replace the unit under warranty but they won't because they say it runs fine in their office (not really it's designed operating location) (even though surely a warranty replacement won't cost them anything).

I can only think that either the unit is duff, or the installation is not up to scratch? IMO it is up to the supplier to ensure that the thing works and isn't just left as a very expensive piece of junk. Should I escalate to Raymarine themselves?

FWIW they also say the 1.5 kt speed difference between the SOG and log speed - in non-tidal waters - is a matter of recalibrating the tridata, but that doesn't seem quite right to me

Would appreciate your thoughts

[rene460]

Hi pipemma,

Another vote for definitely needing to calibrate the boat speed transducer for the tri-data.  The paddle wheel sits very close to the hull surface in the boundary layer and is strongly influenced by the shape of your hull, position of the transducer, and precise installation.  When sailing, it will always be different on each tack due to the slight change in water flow direction over the hull around the transducer.

Also, the paddle wheel is highly nonlinear.  My old Tri-data had only one calibration point.  Hence it could only be correct at one speed, and will read fast or slow at any other speed.  My new i70 has provision for six calibration points, so building a curve that allows the electronics to eliminate the non-linearity.  But it still had to be calibrated for my boat.  And it still varies from tack to tack when sailing.  Though the very interesting thing is that despite this difference, if I set both the GPS and the i70 trip logs to zero at the same time, they agree within better than 5% over distances around 100 nautical miles, providing the sailing involves roughly equal distances on each tack, typically a number of "out and back" trips.

You can successfully calibrate against your GPS.  If you do a steady speed run in the early morning when the water is glassy smoothe in non-tidal waters, all those short term errors mentioned will be averaged out and the GPS speed more than sufficiently accurate.  And once calibrated, it will hold.  Even if your instrument has only one calibration point, work it out for several different speeds then choose something that is representative of your "typical" cruise speed.

I did mine nearly nine years ago, and it is still accurate against the GPS when motoring straight and level in still waters.   It is surprising how much surface current you can get with a bit of wind even in smooth waters.  With the six points calibrated, I have seen it agreeing with the GPS running close to down wind at over nine knots, even though it is not possible to motor at that speed, so beyond the highest speed that I used to calibrate.  Now when I notice a difference between the sog and GPS speed when motoring straight and level, it is usually a fouled transducer or hull weed/slime.  

If your Tri-data has only one calibration point, the technique I used with that instrument was to motor a straight course, or multiple straight legs, and compare the distance measured by the tri data with the distance measured on the chart.  I then adjusted the calibration factor so the two matched.  I then kept an eye on that distance measured by the tri data when ever it was practical to compare with a chart distance and made little tweaks to the calibration factor, but you can't get it perfect with a single calibration point.  Obviously now, with GPS trip meters the comparison is much easier than having to measure a chart distance.

On the plotter problems, I have noticed that my Raymarine plotter, the very small one, has a maximum voltage reading on the "about" page.  It allows you to see if there has been any voltage spikes.  If you have electric winches, these produce a lot of electrical noise on the system both due to the motors and the operating relays.  It might be worth trying some means of suppressing this noise, such as those slip on ferrite donuts over the power wires, or making sure the supply to the instrument is quite separate from the wiring to the winches or controllers.  If all else fails, a separate small battery for the instruments with a DC-DC charger should totally isolate the instrument from other electrical issues.

If you can get to the right person or department at Raymarine, they can be very good and most helpful, and I have experienced this.  Unfortunately, he left or was promoted and I don't know who to contact these days.  But it can be a trick to get past dealers who don't want to go to any trouble.  But there must be a helpful service support person closer to you than Sydney anyway, worth a try.

rene460

[pipemma]

Thanks all.

Vasko, you're right, I did always have electrical problems, but they all seem to have been resolved since I bought the new batteries in May. Conclusion: she's never had new batteries, they've always been a bit duff and whatever was sculling around that I could be palmed off with.

I'll have to check the alarm log on the unit (if there is one) when I'm next out - not until back end of July now though

No electric winches. The biggest power drains are the interior lights (I have a load of LED bulbs to fit next time I'm down), which obviously aren't on when under way, the fridge (which the solar now powers fine, but I still tend to turn off when sailing - old habits die hard) and the plotter/instruments.  I now have 500Ah of new domestic batteries and 260W of solar.

Still, when it cost me well over €6000 to get this kit supplied and installed, I do rather feel the supplier should be a little more concerned about making sure it works.

I'll look at recalibrating the Tridata when I'm down next. I do wish Raymarine would supply manuals in hard copy though!

[vasko]

if you have 500Ah domestic batteries then the issue is either faulty plotter or unstable corded, non well made connection somewhere

or also a VERY high voltage - which only the log in the plotter or battery monitoring and login system should be able to identify  - may be the solar panel controller is faulty - does this happened when on engine or only when sailing or in both scenarios ?

[so36idavid]

Maybe it's worth your time and money to plug a voltage data logger into your system? You can get them for under $100 US. Try to measure voltage as close in the circuit to the plotter as possible. Measuring the voltage at the batteries might be interesting but it doesn't tell you what the plotter is seeing.

I have to recalibrate my speed transducer periodically. I don't know why, it could be something as simple as a bit of slime on the paddle wheel or maybe a chip of paint on the bottom causing turbulence. It's a pretty simple procedure, takes about 20 minutes. Basically put the instrument into calibration mode, motor for a mile in one direction, turn around, go back to your starting point and voila. If you absolutely believe there's no current then you can do it almost instantaneously, there's a calibration mode that says basically "Calibrate to the GPS speed". Check your manual for details.

David

[ForGrinsToo]

These are great comments, from Rene in particular. Angle of heel, leeway, waves - are going to affect the water flow over the paddle wheel. I'll add that I discovered my knotmeter paddle was installed backward (after studying a lot of Raymarine photos) and that performance has been much better since I turned it around. But the ST60 allows a single-point calibration while, as Rene points out, the readout is non-linear (apparently reads a voltage rather than counting pulses). Since I am most often in the 5 - 7 kt range, I have it calibrated at 6 kts by two 1-mile runs (180 degrees course change between runs), under power, in no current/low wind while using the gps average.

If you are a racer and care about hundredths of a knot while trimming the sails, the relative change is what matters.

As far as the chartplotter rebooting, the most likely suspect is voltage changes (especially low) at the display. And the most likely causes are undersized wiring and bad electrical connections between the display and the power panel, and don't discount the possibility of a bad breaker or bad switch at the panel. If you go the voltage logger route as David suggests, you are probably going to find that something like the refrigerator turning on or an autopilot steering hard is briefly pulling a lot of current and dropping the voltage at the unit.

Geoff

[georgia]

i'd offer that you need to check the voltage AT the Chart plotter.   I have 3 chart plotters on board. two below at the NAV station and one on deck. The voltage is fine at the batteries, and fine below decks to all gear, but the power run that was there when I bought the boat was old and had too much resistance... When I saw 13.2 at the battery and 13 at the nav station, I saw 11.2 Vdc at the helm...   immediately ran larger gauge wires to the helm plotter. 

[Trevor]

Hello pipemma,

That unit is rated at an upper operating temperature at 55 degrees C. Unless you are in extreme conditions that can surely be set aside as a reasonable explanation. The unit has an operating voltage range from 10.8 volts to 32 volts. That is quite a range.

It would be reasonable to temporarily fit a cheap multimeter with a min/max hold voltage setting to simply see the range of voltage at the chart plotter while you are under way. If the chart plotter reboots while the voltage is above 10.8 volts you should take your concern to Raymarine.

This is not a cheap unit and should be able to handle the normal operating environment of a yacht while under way. If you can just check that the voltage at the plotter is within range it allows you to take a more robust stance with the dealer and ultimately Raymarine. That is what I would do.

It is of concern that you say the Dealer/Installer wash their hands of the problem. If the dealer installed it they should take full responsibility for the installation practices and hence the cabling of the unit so it does work within its specified voltage range. That they tell you it is your problem after they installed it is frankly a disgrace.

Regards,

Trevor

[ForGrinsToo]

"That they tell you it is your problem after they installed it is frankly a disgrace."

Absolutely!

the es98 is rated at 10 - 20 W consumption, nominally 1 - 2 A at 12V. You need a resistance of just 2 ohm to pull the voltage down below the 10.8. Given that the wire is probably 22 gauge (typical SeaTalk), it'll be around 0.5 ohm for a 25' run. Bad connections anywhere can easily finish the job. That the installer says it works fine in the shop means the installation on your boat was ... They should fix it.

Geoff

[saxofon]

Hello,

Interesting, I've had exactly same problem with my eS97.
Two seasons of reboot problem... lengthy email discussions with Raymarine.
In my case it works superfine at the dock, but when boat is sailing (which is a quite normal usecase )
the plotter reboots with a two hour period. The last 30 min of that period it gets noticeably slower and slower.
Trying to pan/zoom might take minutes for it to react. Then somewhere at the end it freezes (might be same
5 min you encounter) and "reboots" (more on this below).

Would be interesting if you could save logs from your unit. RM support seems not to be aware of this generally,
I found it out myself after hours of problem investigation. You can do this here:
HomePage->Setup->Maintainence->Save logs
and they will end up on the sdcard. The logs contains clear evidence of software issues.
Some examples :

In logs named like MFD_APP__0012.log or similar :

*********************************************************
* Crash Handler
*********************************************************
*
* Got a crash! signo=6 - Abort
* Errno: 0
* Code: 0
* Pid: 1890
* Uid: 0
* Status: 1139068576
* Utime: 0
* Stime: -1092063544
* Value: 1139068576
* Int: 1139068576
* ptr: 1139068576
* Addr: 0x762
* Band: 1890
* Fd: 0
*
* Application : /raymarine/Application/MFDApplication
* Software version: v19.03
* Build number : 00036
*
* Offending Thread's Backtrace: MainThread [LWP=29903]
*
* Backtrace of "MainThread" (OSSTaskId:0xBEE87890, pthread:0x487B0D30, LWP:29903)
* Frame 00: /raymarine/Application/libMFDFramework.so.1(Platform_Backtrace(void**, int, int*, ucontext*)) [0x42154b18]
* Frame 01: /raymarine/Application/libMFDFramework.so.1() [0x4215ffb8]
* Frame 02: /raymarine/Application/libMFDFramework.so.1() [0x42161bc4]
* Frame 03: /lib/libc.so.6(__default_rt_sa_restorer) [0x46f2ef10]
* Frame 04: /raymarine/Application/libNavionics.so.1() [0x43bf1e70]
* Frame 05: /raymarine/Application/libNavionics.so.1(sqlite3_vfs_register) [0x43c1187c]
* Frame 06: /raymarine/Application/libNavionics.so.1(sdf::CTrackDbInterface::CTrackDbInterface(bool)) [0x43bb76a4]
* Frame 07: /raymarine/Application/libNavionics.so.1(Navionics::DepthInfoCollection::CheckDiskSpaceUsed()) [0x43a396dc]
* Frame 08: /raymarine/Application/libNavionics.so.1(Navionics::DepthInfoCollection::CreateTrack()) [0x43a3a9d0]
* Frame 09: /raymarine/Application/libNavionics.so.1(Navionics::DepthInfoCollection::SetTrackStartTime(Navionics::NavDateTime const&)) [0x43a3ad3c]


(hmm sorry, not sure how computer nerdy people are here in this forum... :-) )

And looking a bit further in my case, I found this :

Jul 25 11:31:41 [MFDApplication] [ERROR] DepthCollectionManager.cpp:219 (AddPoint): AddPoint() error 1
Jul 25 11:31:41 [MFDApplication] [WARNING] NMEA0183ApprovedSentences.cpp:514 (EncodeFromDB): Failed to read Depth Offset from the same
transport as the Depth, Depth Offset will not be populated
Jul 25 11:31:41 [MFDApplication] [ERROR] DepthCollectionManager.cpp:219 (AddPoint): AddPoint() error 1
- Last output repeated 11 times -
Jul 25 11:31:42 [MFDApplication] [WARNING] NMEA0183ApprovedSentences.cpp:514 (EncodeFromDB): Failed to read Depth Offset from the same
transport as the Depth, Depth Offset will not be populated
Jul 25 11:31:42 [MFDApplication] [ERROR] DepthCollectionManager.cpp:219 (AddPoint): AddPoint() error 1
Jul 25 11:31:43 [MFDApplication] [WARNING] NMEA0183ApprovedSentences.cpp:514 (EncodeFromDB): Failed to read Depth Offset from the same
transport as the Depth, Depth Offset will not be populated
Jul 25 11:31:43 [MFDApplication] [ERROR] DepthCollectionManager.cpp:219 (AddPoint): AddPoint() error 1
- Last output repeated 9 times -
Jul 25 11:31:44 [MFDApplication] [WARNING] NMEA0183ApprovedSentences.cpp:514 (EncodeFromDB): Failed to read Depth Offset from the same
transport as the Depth, Depth Offset will not be populated
Jul 25 11:31:44 [MFDApplication] [ERROR] DepthCollectionManager.cpp:219 (AddPoint): AddPoint() error 1
Jul 25 11:31:45 [MFDApplication] [WARNING] NMEA0183ApprovedSentences.cpp:514 (EncodeFromDB): Failed to read Depth Offset from the same
transport as the Depth, Depth Offset will not be populated
Jul 25 11:31:46 [MFDApplication] [ERROR] DepthCollectionManager.cpp:219 (AddPoint): AddPoint() error 1
- Last output repeated 4 times -
Jul 25 11:31:46 [MFDApplication] [WARNING] NMEA0183ApprovedSentences.cpp:514 (EncodeFromDB): Failed to read Depth Offset from the same
transport as the Depth, Depth Offset will not be populated
- Last output repeated twice -


These constant error reports is filling memory and at some point the plotter simply had enough
so to speak and a hardware reset is needed to take in place to recover. It is really a hw
reset and not a reboot, which normally is nicer to the system but as the system is locked
up it is needed.

I had a Airmar DST800 triducer with NMEA0183 interface and it is sending out a NMEA depth
sentence without an offset. In that sentence the offset is optional so I don't think Airmar
is wrong, it is RM software that fails in this case and unfortunately needs to tell it on
every depth sentence it gets...

Raymarine has still not accepted that they might have a fault and I got tired of trying to
convince them so this year I invested in yet-another-RM-thingy, their triducer (which internally
also is a Airmar as most are) with NMEA2000 interface instead. Not a big problem really and
I got rid of the last NMEA0183 thing on boat. But it is a problem that our instrument providers
take so easily on such important instruments on board.
I have seen others with RM units having similar issue, the period can differ which probably
is due to how much the software complains to logs...

After the swap I don't have these constant errors, no crashes and no reboots.
But my confidence in RM doing high quality stuff is unfortunately pretty low for the moment.

Sorry for lengthy reply... the short feedback would be, perhaps your plotter encounters similar
and reports and reports...
If you are unsure how to read the logs you could send them to me. Perhaps PM so we can share emails
and I could take a quick look if it could be same.

[Trevor]

Well saxofon, doesn't that show the importance of this forum? Your great work in assessing this problem is not easy to do and it shows that a seemingly one-off individual installation problem can actually be a systemic problem with software developed by a company as large as Raymarine.

It is surely the same problem as pipemma and is equally surely a software problem. How many other people are trying to resolve and deal with the same issue? A lot I bet! Meanwhile dealers are ignoring a problem that is too difficult for them to resolve leaving the client completely exposed and unable to resolve the issue.

I am a Raymarine user but do acknowledge just how really great Garmin equipment is now. This type of problem can do serious damage to these brands. Raymarine should be crawling over cut glass to get to you two and resolve this problem as fast and as painlessly as possible. I would be interested to know how they finally respond. I suggest they need to be a bit less arrogant and little more attentive if they want to continue with significant market share.

Regards,

Trevor

[pipemma]

Trevor, saxofon thank you so much! I'll get him indoors to look at this too since he's more technically minded than I am.

It does sound as if saxofon's problem is almost identical to mine - my 5 mins is maybe an underestimate.

We're not back on the boat until late July but will gladly touch base by PM then. If this is what it is, then I'll kick the dealer to kick Raymarine, and if he fails to do so immediately, I'll get onto RM directly myself with dual concerns.

(PS saxofon - which variety? I play tenor in a big band...)

[saxofon]

Pipemma, always nice to meet fellow saxophone players! I play the most common ones (baritone, tenor, alto and soprano) although it mainly is the bigger two that gets exercised these days (along with their owner ). Jazz, fusion, funk, soul, r&b, pop... all sorts of notes seems to come out from the horns in various settings, mostly bigband. Would be interesting then to hear how your experience with dealer/RM support goes on. I did get the
initial usual support paths :

checked voltage? Yes, I had. With oscilloscope and couldn't trigger any unusual. Also the fault pattern isnt
logical to such an issue as it is too periodic. (given that I don't run bowthruster or windlass at a 2h pattern...)

unit flush mounted, might overheat? No, in the brackets it came with. Also the fault pattern isnt logical to such an issue, the next reboot period would then be much shorter as the unit would already be warmed up.

the dealer exchanged the whole eS97 unit. still same issue...

RM actually made me a new sdcard with new navionics maps, since they suspected my sdcard might have fault.
still same issue...

Trevor, thanks and yes unfortunately the bigger companies seems to have harder to listen to their customer base.
A company picking up OpenCPN, make some boatfriendly hardware for it and support it would probably succeed and live quite well, and hopefully pushing RM and others todo better work in engineering and release testing.

[pipemma]

Small update: teh dealer/supplier is now replacing the unit under warranty (one year on from first report). Apparently 3 working days but I’ll believe that when it happens. I’ll keep you posted

[saxofon]

So... a bit curious what the solution to the problem was? 🤔 😊

[pipemma]

Oh I’m so sorry, I completely forgot to update this, slapped wrist for me

The eS98 was replaced under warranty and as Raymarine had discontinued it (I get the impression the model as a whole was problematic) I got a brand new Axiom Pro 9-inch model. Since then not a single problem. Unfortunately 2 of the existing connectors didn’t fit and the dealer made me pay €150 for a new cable and an adapter but eventually refunded when I complained to Raymarine - a warranty replacement should include everything needed to make the bloody thing work, right?

Anyway, it was a long fight but a good outcome in the end

[saxofon]

That was impressive support you got in the end I must say! 😊
Thanks for sharing.

[pipemma]

May 26, 2019 13:22:34 GMT saxofon said:

That was impressive support you got in the end I must say! 😊
Thanks for sharing.

Yes, but the support was from Raymarine, not the dealer/installer. Or rather, the latter only because I got Raymarine to kick their bum! It shouldn't have been that difficult.