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Post by alenka on Feb 17, 2017 22:10:23 GMT
Well... After years of talk and false starts it seems the Greeks have finally introduced the threatened cruising tax.
Google translations of the decree don't make much sense but it seems almost certain that those of us in Greek waters will have to swap our DEKPA to a new format one that costs €50 plus pay an additional cruising tax.
Details are sketchy but at the moment it seems you will have to provide passport proof for all owners when renewing the DEKPA. Tricky if you are a joint/group owner.
I will try and post more as the plot unfolds....
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Post by vsergio on Feb 18, 2017 9:01:42 GMT
I don't know if this is comparable or not and if this will make you feel better or not..... but the US is now requiring that Canadian boats crossing in to the US waters pay $50 fee.!!! Canada has not reciprocated and it will not. Guess who is losing here!!! (No plans to sail to the USA this summer, it is a matter of principle shared by all of us Canadians
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Post by alenka on Feb 18, 2017 19:26:33 GMT
The Greek Proposal as it currently stands is for a €50 fee just for the issue of the paperwork. A boat of around 15m will then have to pay around €1,000 in licence fees each and every year. It gets complicated because there are clauses that talk about higher fees if you leave EU waters. This is maybe to discourage people visiting neighbouring Turkey as part of their cruise. Turkey and Greece are anything but friends.
As with most Greek administration the decree is not 100% clear. How this cruising tax will affect a non EU registered boat of which there are many (Australian, NZ, Canadian, etc) in Greek waters is vague. Part of the problem it seems is that many locals have boats registered on the Delaware (USA) register to hide an asset that they would have to pay tax on as a Greek resident.
Up until now sailing in Greece has been very cheap. You can't really complain about the lack of port facilities (no power, water, and even proper mooring rings tie up to) if you are not paying, but all that is changing too. You can now expect to pay around €20 per night in many places - but still no facilities.
In some ways the implantation of these charges have been brought about by a small but significant group of boaters that have abused the situation, leaving boats on public quays unattended for months on end to save on marina fees. The bottom line is that these boats prevent genuine cruisers from getting ashore to spend money in tavernas and shops and injecting much needed cash into the local economies.
At face value Greece could go from being one of the cheapest cruising grounds to one of the most expensive almost overnight. Greek administration is however rather like a weather forecast... What is predicted and what happens on the day could be two different things.
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Post by vasko on Feb 18, 2017 20:51:06 GMT
hmmm I have very good experience with sailing in Greece .. I'm actually planing to move from South of Ffance to Greece in teh next years... also juts bought a small studio 35m2 on Syros / Ermopoli and planing to move my boat there.. also boat is 9.98m e.g. usually everywhere including Greece is considered tax free length... I still believe that my under 10m boat will not have cruising tax..
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Post by alenka on Feb 18, 2017 22:46:38 GMT
Hi Vasko,
The proposed tax on boats between 8-10m is €25 per month. Which is not bad at all. There is a big jump in tax for boats >12m but I have yet to see anything regarding Cats. There is no denying Greece offers wonderful cruising and in return cruisers inject millions of euros into its economy, especially many of the smaller islands who could not survive without this income.
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Post by chuckr on Feb 20, 2017 8:36:52 GMT
We are going to have to watch this very closely as we had planned to sail the northern Greek coast down to Crete and back to Turkey for the winter or winter in Greece if we get a reply from the gov't as to allowing us to winter there. As a 12.1m boat it looks like we could get hammered and that is not good.
But if they are going to put a huge tax on we will sail the Turkish coast to Cyprus and winter over in the Red Sea/Israel -
Please keep us updated as this progresses.
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Post by alenka on Feb 22, 2017 12:11:11 GMT
It seems the Turkish are also trying to mix things up too. Again the problem stems from locals putting their boats on the Delaware register rather than their own national flag.
This is how it was reported in a local newspaper.
DAILY SABAH ISTANBUL Published 12 hours ago
Limits for docking of yachts without Turkish flag
Amid aims to make the Turkish flag a mainstream concept in nautical culture across the country, restrictions will be imposed on yachts with foreign national flags for the duration of their stay in local marinas, according to the Turkish daily Habertürk.
Yachts with foreign flags will only be allowed to dock at Turkish ports for 90 to 120 days in a calendar year and will have to spend the rest of the calendar year abroad.
The government, which is implementing regulations to encourage the transition in order to make the country the center of global yacht tourism, is preparing to impose restrictions on the duration of yachts that do not bear Turkish flags in Turkey.
While the Value Added Tax (VAT) was reduced from 18 percent to 1 percent, a 23 percent Private Consumption Tax (PCT) for boats was lifted.
On the other hand, a mooring fee between TL 400 and TL 6,500 taken from the boats each year was removed. Because of the high taxes levied, approximately 9,000 yachts owned by Turkish people bore flags of foreign countries.
The new regulation enables yachts to have a Turkish flag with tax exemption and a 1 percent tax will be levied on the newly-bought yachts. With the aim of mainstreaming the use of the Turkish flag, the period allocated for yachts with foreign country flags to dock in Turkey is planned to be limited.
The period is considered to be reduced to 90 or 120 days per year. Those yachts with foreign country flags will have to spend a large part of the year abroad.
The directive on this implementation has not been published yet, but the concern that charter yachts that assume the burden of yacht tourism might have a problem. A large portion of charter yachts which accommodate millions of tourists every year belong to companies abroad, therefore, carries the flags of the countries where these companies are based.
While the state removes tax, yacht agencies that mediate the transition to the Turkish flag and carry out customs processes are prepared to ask for high fees.
Last week, the agencies held a meeting to discuss a common fee policy. It was found out that the agencies will demand fees beginning at $6,000 for yachts smaller than 12 square meters. In case agencies adopt a high fee policy for paperwork, the government's agenda to promote the transition to Turkish flags may be hit hard.
Moreover, the representatives of the yacht tourism sector reckon that if the foreign-flagged yachts are compelled to sail abroad, it will negatively affect the yacht tourism in Turkey.
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Post by hoppy on Feb 22, 2017 12:51:50 GMT
Sounds like the Turks are shooting themselves in the foot with the 90 or 120 day limit. Not a good thing when the Coup, illegal immigrants and bombings already have people thinking to stay away.
I think it is reasonable to make the Turkish owned boats fly the Turkish flag, not the US and I think it is also reasonable for foreign owned Turkish based yachts to to the same, but foreign owned private yachts is just crazy. Hopefully the later will be exempt from that stupidity.
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Post by alenka on Feb 22, 2017 15:05:16 GMT
As you can imagine the report has sent more than a few into 'Concern' mode and emails have been flying here, there and everywhere.
This is a reply from a prominent Turkish cruiser/skipper.
" Turkish we have a saying that some news reporters receive the message not through their ears and unfortunately Daily Sabah reporter is one of this reporters.
There is a new regulation announced only 10 days ago about the yachts with foreign registry but owned by Turkish citizens. I am also one of this group members, my old Sadler has German flag.
According to the existing law, Turkish citizens are not allowed to buy a second hand non Turkish registered yacht and register in Turkey. But also there is a law that it allows Turks to buy a yacht with foreign flag and keep the yacht in Turkey. Because of this rule Turks bought yachts that they are non-Turkish registered.
It is believed that today there are approximately 8,000 yachts not Turkish registered but Turkish owned in Turkish waters.
The new regulation, which is announced 10 days ago, is giving us an opportunity to register our existing foreign registered yachts to Turkish registration offices with no additional tax. They also announce that if a Turkish person buys a second hand yacht in the future, the yacht can not stay in Turkish waters more than certain days which the rules for this are not regulated yet. I mean this is only a blackmailing for Turks to stop them to buy second hand foreign registered yachts.
Nothing to do with real visiting yachts owned by other nations than Turks. There is no change with the regulations related to yourself and others.
Seems like a badly reported article... Better let Don T know more fake news!!!
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Post by hugoman on May 7, 2017 12:18:32 GMT
Every year I pop over to Gaios to get my annual stamp. Not this year. They refused to give me one and said I had to go to Sivota and pay €50 for the new one. Don't know why they couldn't issue. Almost mentioned having to go to the tax office for a form but I already have all the existing required paperwork so am very confused.
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Post by alenka on May 8, 2017 20:06:29 GMT
This year the Greeks have introduced a new DEKPA and charge €50 for its issue. This is entirely separate from the proposed cruising tax which rears its head every couple of years or so.
There is much confusion with the Port Police as to what exactly has to be done to issue the new DEKPA so not only does every office do it differently, each and every police officer does it differently.
If you go to Preveza this is the procedure (I had) to follow;
1. Visit the port police. They check all your documents to make sure all is in order.
2. Visit what they describe as Citizens Advice Office. Located up an alley between the town hall and the First National Bank. It's the first door on the left of the alley.
3. They will process an application and print off a form with the appropriate tax code.
4. Visit any bank, present and pay €50. Obtain receipt.
5. back to port police with receipt and complete application form.
Points worth noting... They were only interested in the Greek translation of the insurance and making sure I had the appropriate pollution insurance for Greek waters. The SSR registration, from which they queried that it was issued in Cardiff but the boat show's 'of Brighton'. Accepted explanation that Cardiff is a central office. They also asked for DSC radio call sign - which I didn't have but they let it slide. Checked my passport as owner and accepted my Yacht Master certificate as proof of competence. Also needed to see my wife's passport details as she is a co-owner.
It seems many offices ask to see some sort of qualification and will settle for an ICC. In one instance one individual told an owner that his wife should also have an ICC as she was a co-owner. Same office next day they apparently didn't ask for any qualifications - Its Greece after all!!
NB. If you slip over 365 days between stamps you have to start all over again but I was told they would issue another stamp at the end of the season as I told them I would be late in visiting next year. Some people have been told no early stamps!!
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Post by hoppy on May 8, 2017 22:29:36 GMT
This year the Greeks have introduced a new DEKPA and charge €50 for its issue. This is entirely separate from the proposed cruising tax which rears its head every couple of years or so. There is much confusion with the Port Police as to what exactly has to be done to issue the new DEKPA so not only does every office do it differently, each and every police officer does it differently. If you go to Preveza this is the procedure (I had) to follow; 1. Visit the port police. They check all your documents to make sure all is in order. 2. Visit what they describe as Citizens Advice Office. Located up an alley between the town hall and the First National Bank. It's the first door on the left of the alley. 3. They will process an application and print off a form with the appropriate tax code. 4. Visit any bank, present and pay €50. Obtain receipt. 5. back to port police with receipt and complete application form. Points worth noting... They were only interested in the Greek translation of the insurance and making sure I had the appropriate pollution insurance for Greek waters. The SSR registration, from which they queried that it was issued in Cardiff but the boat show's 'of Brighton'. Accepted explanation that Cardiff is a central office. They also asked for DSC radio call sign - which I didn't have but they let it slide. Checked my passport as owner and accepted my Yacht Master certificate as proof of competence. Also needed to see my wife's passport details as she is a co-owner. It seems many offices ask to see some sort of qualification and will settle for an ICC. In one instance one individual told an owner that his wife should also have an ICC as she was a co-owner. Same office next day they apparently didn't ask for any qualifications - Its Greece after all!! NB. If you slip over 365 days between stamps you have to start all over again but I was told they would issue another stamp at the end of the season as I told them I would be late in visiting next year. Some people have been told no early stamps!! Greeks LOL
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Post by J349er on May 11, 2017 1:11:34 GMT
In the US State of Maryland, boat registration/tax, regardless of size is $30 every two years. The Chesapeake Bay is no Greace but somewhat a (tax) heaven for boat owners.
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Post by chuckr on May 14, 2017 7:19:51 GMT
Thanks to all - we should be heading to Greece in 10-14 days - we will report what we find then.
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Post by alenka on May 15, 2017 14:31:05 GMT
Chuck,
I seem to remember you are a non-EU flagged boat. In which case you will need a 'transit log' not a DEKPA.
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Post by chuckr on May 19, 2017 6:18:52 GMT
Chuck, I seem to remember you are a non-EU flagged boat. In which case you will need a 'transit log' not a DEKPA. Alenka -- yea we are a USA boat and we had one of those when we sailed from Albania to Turkey - Not sure where we will check in yet but it looks like Khios at this time - depends if the Turks let me check out the day before and leave early in the am the next day as it is a 60+nm run and hard to do if we have to wait for offices to open and check out and then sail it and be in before dark - if we have to wait we go to Samos and check in thanks Alenka
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Post by chuckr on Jun 2, 2017 12:54:54 GMT
We checked into Greece the other day, at Chios, and it was easy. We went to CG and paid 15eu then over to C&I and cleared in and got our DEPKA for 30Euro and then back to CG to get stamped in - no big issues - simple and easy
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Post by alenka on Aug 11, 2017 21:51:40 GMT
Chuck,
Was it a DEKPA or a Transit Log? You should have been issued with the latter being a USA boat, or charged €50 for the new style DEKPA.
Either way glad it was a simple and easy process for you.
Enjoy Greece.
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Post by saltymetals on Nov 19, 2017 20:43:57 GMT
Alenka,
Fantastic. V useful info and updates. You are doing a great job and deserve a vote of thanks from those who wish or intend to cruise these areas. (I also have a 2004 43ds). Going to be a difficult choice for next year since Croatia has certainly raised its charges by 400+% but i suppose a quick 15 days visit is not going to break the bank. Now the Greeks are talking about similar charges but who knows if they will be implemented. So what does that leave? Italy? Montenegro? Albania? Andrew "Genial Bee"
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Post by alenka on Nov 21, 2017 11:08:17 GMT
Andrew, Thanks for the kind comments.
In truth all the hard word being done on this is by a chap called Chris Robb on behalf of Cruising Association members.
If you are not already a member of the CA then I would suggest you might like to look at joining. The fee is not that much and you get a huge amount of help and backup on all things cruising in most parts of the world. In fact, the CA discount I get on my annual berthing fee alone at my Greek marina more than pays for the membership.
If you tell the CA you are a member of the Jeanneau Owners Association you may get a discount on the first year of member.
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Post by MalcolmP on Nov 21, 2017 16:58:41 GMT
Andrew, Thanks for the kind comments. In truth all the hard word being done on this is by a chap called Chris Robb on behalf of Cruising Association members. If you are not already a member of the CA then I would suggest you might like to look at joining. The fee is not that much and you get a huge amount of help and backup on all things cruising in most parts of the world. In fact, the CA discount I get on my annual berthing fee alone at my Greek marina more than pays for the membership. If you tell the CA you are a member of the Jeanneau Owners Association NETWORK - edit ;-) you may get a discount on the first year of member. Yes CA very useful organisation, especially when cruising an unfamiliar coast. We too have saved more through their discount scheme than cost of membership - 20% this winter alone. You will get 25% Discount off first year membership if you are registered on here or on our owners database, but you do need the discount code which I will send if I am PM messaged or emailed by a registered Jeanneau Owner. www.jeanneau-owners.com/discounts.html
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Post by chuckr on Dec 4, 2017 6:49:04 GMT
Alenka, Fantastic. V useful info and updates. You are doing a great job and deserve a vote of thanks from those who wish or intend to cruise these areas. (I also have a 2004 43ds). Going to be a difficult choice for next year since Croatia has certainly raised its charges by 400+% but i suppose a quick 15 days visit is not going to break the bank. Now the Greeks are talking about similar charges but who knows if they will be implemented. So what does that leave? Italy? Montenegro? Albania? Andrew "Genial Bee"
Yea - transit log - but it got more interesting later - at some ports they wanted to see it, made us fill out all the paperwork again, make copies of everything and stamp it. In others they told us to go away. In Thessaloniki I sat with the CG for a while and we had a great talk - they were not busy and wanted to just talk about what we were up to and where we had been - They pulled some documents and showed us that we did not need to check in anymore so we stopped Only problem was when we went to check out in Rhodes they gave me what for for not stamping in and out of every port - I told them some ports told us to go away and we were told in Thess that we no long had to - they were not happy and again gave us what for. It seems no one in Greece really knows the rules.
And Rhodes is really officious - We had been in and out of Greece in 2015 and had all our paperwork checked multiple times and our insurance checked I have no idea how many times and no said a word. Then as we were leaving and checking out the CG person gave us what for for our 500kusd liability and said it was not enough and Greece requires 500eu - and I was responsibility for not having insurance. I told her I was checked multiple times and no one said a word and she something about fining me but said do not come back without proper insurance. I told her no problem I will not be coming back
And in Rhodes we were 2 weeks past Schengen and they were going to fine us. I told them we had broken a prop in Crete and had my ships log with me along with another log we keep that showed what had happened. they read it and said that did not matter as we were over and they would fine us. I asked them how I could leave Greece when I did not have a prop for almost a month. they said I should have gotten a note from the police in Crete that I had a broken prop so I said I have my computer do you want to see the pics as they are dated and I have the documents on when the prop was sent and got back along with docs on the haul out and back in - they said they did not care I was over -- it then got very ugly and I do mean ugly - they finally said I had to pay and then contact the Greek Govt in Athens and get a refund. I got very cynical with them and asked if they really thought their gov't would send me a check or even answer me for that matter and then it got ugly again One of them finally made a phone call and dug out a paper and told me to write down what happened and I said it is all written down in the log in detail - they said write so I did and left with a warning but no fine or stamp in the passport - Glad we are not going back to Greece
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Post by alenka on Dec 23, 2017 22:25:22 GMT
Chuck,
Evertime I hear such stories I hang my head in disbelief. Greece is a wonderful place with generally really nice people but alas there are more than a few over officious port police who cannot get it into their heads that tourist are the country's life blood.
A female friend of mine was made to sit to one side while one official dealt with a line of male skippers. He felt women had no place skippering yachts. The situation came to the attention of the supervisor who was not best pleased and issued a reprimand, but once the supervisor left the scene my friend was told that he knew where her boat was and she would regret getting him to trouble. And this from someone wearing a, so called, police uniform.
Some cruising association members have in the past written to the embassy with complaints but they have never received a reply.
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Post by vasko on Dec 25, 2017 8:43:21 GMT
Alenka, Fantastic. V useful info and updates. You are doing a great job and deserve a vote of thanks from those who wish or intend to cruise these areas. (I also have a 2004 43ds). Going to be a difficult choice for next year since Croatia has certainly raised its charges by 400+% but i suppose a quick 15 days visit is not going to break the bank. Now the Greeks are talking about similar charges but who knows if they will be implemented. So what does that leave? Italy? Montenegro? Albania? Andrew "Genial Bee"
Yea - transit log - but it got more interesting later - at some ports they wanted to see it, made us fill out all the paperwork again, make copies of everything and stamp it. In others they told us to go away. In Thessaloniki I sat with the CG for a while and we had a great talk - they were not busy and wanted to just talk about what we were up to and where we had been - They pulled some documents and showed us that we did not need to check in anymore so we stopped Only problem was when we went to check out in Rhodes they gave me what for for not stamping in and out of every port - I told them some ports told us to go away and we were told in Thess that we no long had to - they were not happy and again gave us what for. It seems no one in Greece really knows the rules.
And Rhodes is really officious - We had been in and out of Greece in 2015 and had all our paperwork checked multiple times and our insurance checked I have no idea how many times and no said a word. Then as we were leaving and checking out the CG person gave us what for for our 500kusd liability and said it was not enough and Greece requires 500eu - and I was responsibility for not having insurance. I told her I was checked multiple times and no one said a word and she something about fining me but said do not come back without proper insurance. I told her no problem I will not be coming back
And in Rhodes we were 2 weeks past Schengen and they were going to fine us. I told them we had broken a prop in Crete and had my ships log with me along with another log we keep that showed what had happened. they read it and said that did not matter as we were over and they would fine us. I asked them how I could leave Greece when I did not have a prop for almost a month. they said I should have gotten a note from the police in Crete that I had a broken prop so I said I have my computer do you want to see the pics as they are dated and I have the documents on when the prop was sent and got back along with docs on the haul out and back in - they said they did not care I was over -- it then got very ugly and I do mean ugly - they finally said I had to pay and then contact the Greek Govt in Athens and get a refund. I got very cynical with them and asked if they really thought their gov't would send me a check or even answer me for that matter and then it got ugly again One of them finally made a phone call and dug out a paper and told me to write down what happened and I said it is all written down in the log in detail - they said write so I did and left with a warning but no fine or stamp in the passport - Glad we are not going back to Greece
Rhodes is one of the best place to visit and the WORST MARINA OFFICE in the world - all this that you have encounter- is because you did not use the agent next door to the marina - who will sort out everything swiftly and ask for may be 200EUR - I had so many problems with this marina that I gave up in the end and just stay in anchor out - sometime get in from 12pm to 8am and go out again - my guess is that the agent is some kind of cousin-friend-brother to someone from the marina and the marina generate all this problems just to make you use the awfully expensive agent... same issues is when you try to find space in the marina - plenty of space but you are not allowed to get in because everything is booked - but when you try to book - it is not allowed for you you need to use the agent - who will ask for 120EUR+ just to help you with the lines...
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Post by vasko on Dec 25, 2017 8:46:07 GMT
The general rule is Greece is - do not bother to do anything except if someone come and ask you to do it... sometime even when someone ask you can still not go by saying that the captain is not on board and you will pass the info on..
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