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Post by sitara on Aug 3, 2016 21:39:31 GMT
Hi Mick, I just use a water proof grease in my Volvo seal, to insert it I put some in a drinking straw, squeeze open the shaft seal and insert the flattened end of the straw and then squeeze the grease out. I normally do it on the hard but you should be able to do it in the water. I don't know how important the correct grease is to the life of the seal but some lubrication will be better than too little or none.
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Post by Tafika II on Aug 3, 2016 22:18:23 GMT
I do the same as Sitara, but in the water...very little leakage and none after the straw is pulled out. It a simple 2 minute job!
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Post by Mistroma on Aug 6, 2016 22:19:06 GMT
Instructions with mine said to grease annually with 1cc grease. Never leaked but I replaced it after 6 years use anyway as mileage was quite high. New one came with a tube of grease and instructions to assemble with grease inside.
Greasing is very simple. Just squeeze 1-2cc grease into a largish straw, pinch the end flat with pliers. Slip flattened end about 2.5cm into the seal by laying it slat on shaft and easing the flattened end inside. Run flat of a knife or piece of wood along the straw pushing the grease towards the seal. The grease is just squeezed inside the seal without any problem.
You can calculate the amount of grease by measuring the straw diameter. I'd need to double-check how far to push the straw into the seal but 2.5cm does pop into my head.
EDIT: Just spotted 2 earlier posts also mentioning a straw. I guess refresh was slow and I didn't spot them before replying.
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Post by mickmeck on Aug 10, 2016 13:23:55 GMT
Ok, I have done a ton of research. Half of the people say never lubricate the Volvo Penta stuffing box and the other half say, Yes, you should.
Well, I just became a believer of the half that say yes. As I communicated previously, I was having a solid stream come from the front lip of the seal. Enough that it would flow through the hose/tube to get to the bilge sump and then engage the bilge pump – about every 5-8 minutes. So, I started researching for a dripless model – found one - The PSS Shaft Seal - (thanks RXC, I agree the PSS looks like a better idea). So I am looking for a marina to haul me out at a good price but in the meantime I decided to try the grease.
It worked. I squeezed some water proof grease into a straw, flattened the straw so it would fit into the seal and put about 3 cm3 into the seal. The water stopped flowing, it stopped dripping, it stopped. All night it was dry! I ran the engine this morning in reverse for about 15 minutes. There was about 1 oz. of water under the seal but it was not dripping. I am happy.
It appears (well I read it as well) that this is not totally dripless. It drips to ensure that the shaft is being lubricated from the water. What I did notice though, after I would sail I would have water in the bilge under the fuel tank and center water tank. If I sailed long enough and was heeling over there would be water in the bilge area heading towards the bilge sump. So, what is happening is because it was leaking at rest and accumulating a good deal of water that when heeling, the water can’t go down the tube so it goes under the engine compartment and eventually into the bilge area. I am someone who wants the bottom bilge area to be totally dry all the time so that I can see when a problem exists. This was driving me crazy but now I rest at night because I have identified the culprit. So, I am still considering swapping out my Volvo Penta with a PSS Dripless.
If you have any additional questions or would like to know how it turns out, let me know. Hopefully you all appreciate this sharing of my experience and aren’t irritated by the intrusion of frequent posts. I appreciate your feedback as it gives me another opinion / experience event to learn from.
Mick Meckler
Smart men learn from their mistakes, wise men learn from others.
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Post by On y va on Aug 10, 2016 14:17:49 GMT
Hi there, The Volvo seal does not require greasing, if anything grease will actually perish the rubber and void all warranties. I had one fitted in the spring this year and every time you take the boat out of the water just burp the seal from the inside of the boat until you get a squirt of water and that means you are ready to go.... Hope this helps Nick This is just utter nonsense. It is actually the very opposite. Volvo stern glands require greasing every year or 200 hours. When one buys a Volvo stern gland, in the box there is the stern gland, the red protection cap and a little tube, with blue, clearish grease, especially for this purpose. The tube has a fine "nose", which saves you fannying about with straws and such like. One little squeeze approx 6mm inside the gland. Turn shaft 180 dgrs and do the same. Turn shaft a few times to spread the grease and done. 1 minute of work. That tube will last you 10 years, as you only need very little. The reason to grease that part of the shaft/stern gland with grease is only to ensure the last seal stays lubricated, as water does not always reach there. It is also to stop a calcium/salt build up in that area. Dried up calcium and or salt will destroy the outer lip over time.
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Post by mickmeck on Aug 10, 2016 14:26:27 GMT
As I said, I am with the group that says grease it!
I lived in Rota Spain in the 1980's. Wonderful country!
Thanks for your feedback On y va.
Mick
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Post by vasko on Aug 10, 2016 18:10:02 GMT
just install next time : www.elicheradice.com/axial-seal-rmta-rtmo-type/&m58LangNew=ENGI done it and more then 6 month mow I'm extremely happy - just keep in mind that need to be connected to the raw water pump as per the documentation and also need to make sure that a mine flow will not go trough the seal - e.g. use small hose diameter ... greasing is very easy and no need to burp it - one less thing to worry about..
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Post by On y va on Aug 10, 2016 19:56:37 GMT
just install next time : www.elicheradice.com/axial-seal-rmta-rtmo-type/&m58LangNew=ENGI done it and more then 6 month mow I'm extremely happy - just keep in mind that need to be connected to the raw water pump as per the documentation and also need to make sure that a mine flow will not go trough the seal - e.g. use small hose diameter ... greasing is very easy and no need to burp it - one less thing to worry about.. I would not install this unit as Vasko suggests instead of a Volvo stern gland, it is an inferior product and it just causes complications with this silly breather tube. Also, the eliche radiche are of an inferior rubber to the Volvo seals, plus if you do not install the breather hose correctly, it can potenitally sink your boat. There are thousands and thousands of Volvo Seals installed and they generally cause no problems at all. Just READ THE INSTRUCTIONS about fitting, maintenance and replacement intervals and you are fine and have a good, reliable seal. And if you don´t, any product will fail.
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Post by vasko on Aug 10, 2016 20:48:13 GMT
Take On y va advice as he is making his living working on boats and I work only on my own... and also he has a good point for not properly installed seal ....
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Post by rxc on Aug 11, 2016 4:10:16 GMT
Mick, As I said earlier, the question of which shaft seal is the best is like the questions about anchors, anchor chain, sails, and many other important parts on our boats - a bit "religious". <g> And if you continue with the Volvo seal, I do have a couple of tubes of the grease still on the boat, in Baltimore. I hope to be there in September so I can pass them to you then. Ralph
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Post by mickmeck on Aug 11, 2016 13:21:21 GMT
Ralph,
Thanks. Let me know where and when. I always look for a reason to go to The Office.
Mick
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Post by sailbleu on Aug 11, 2016 19:18:52 GMT
Plain silicone grease will alsol do just fine . You can insert it with a seringe , no needle mind you. As for the seal itself , 3 cheers for the volvo gland , no complexity , no fuss , straight forward long lasting seal . Always freewheel my prop and therefor the seal has suffered quite substantially , no issue so far after my last replacement in 2009. I often forget to ' burb ' it , infact I rarely do , still it does the job. Thumbs up !!
Regards
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Post by so40gtb on Aug 12, 2016 3:04:30 GMT
Thank You for reminding me that I need to grease Voyageur's shaft gland this season! Fill plastic straw with marine grease using grease gun, squeeze straw between prop shaft and gland, squeeze straw to push grease into gland, quit when water stops coming out!
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Post by minnewaska on Aug 13, 2016 21:35:43 GMT
....I installed a replacement seal after about 5 years, when I detected a tiny leak, but then went to a PSS seal the next year because I like them better. It is mostly a religious argument..... Same here. While some do seem to take it like a religious argument, I don't get it. The Volvo seal, by design, wears against your prop shaft. That's precisely why you are require to grease the seal, so you don't destroy your shaft. The PSS seal installs a wearable collar over your shaft, so the collar might wear and your shaft should last eternally. When I installed my PSS, the Volvo seal had, in fact, started to wear the shaft and was nearly unable to properly install the collar.
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Post by Damir on Aug 14, 2016 6:07:30 GMT
Radice seal is the same as the Volvo seal only to have a vent pipe that due to corrosion can break and the water can be flooding the ship, if nipple is made of plastic, it can be beter. Fat is important for the glands, or for engine with 2 or 3 Cyliner min revs should adjust that the engine does not vibrate (on gland start leakage) when sailing with motor. This is my expirience.
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Post by rxc on Aug 14, 2016 14:25:34 GMT
....I installed a replacement seal after about 5 years, when I detected a tiny leak, but then went to a PSS seal the next year because I like them better. It is mostly a religious argument..... Same here. While some do seem to take it like a religious argument, I don't get it. The Volvo seal, by design, wears against your prop shaft. That's precisely why you are require to grease the seal, so you don't destroy your shaft. The PSS seal installs a wearable collar over your shaft, so the collar might wear and your shaft should last eternally. When I installed my PSS, the Volvo seal had, in fact, started to wear the shaft and was nearly unable to properly install the collar. I ased to work in a field where it was very important to contain the fluid streams, and minimize leakage from pump and valve shaft seals, because of the high cost of making repairs to these seals, and to avoid contamination of the surrounding area in case of leakage. There are many different types of seals used, but "mechanical seals" like the PSS were the most common type. There is a lot of experience with them in very difficult environments and the tehcnology is very mature. The same argument can be made for the Volvo-style seals, because they ARE used widely and a lot of people DO get good service from them. My principle concerns were that I did not understand how the seal actually worked - I did not see how it was constructed until I removed the old one - there are no drawings on the web that I could find. So, without understanding how it worked, I was hesitant to accept it. I think the issue of shaft scoring is a really important issue, because with the Volvo seal, if you get some grit between the "feathers" and the shaft, you can score the shaft quite a bit, in exactly the spot where you have to have a good seal. I suppose you could try to polish out the scratches, but it is more likely that one would just replace the shaft, at considerable cost. The same concern exists for conventional packing glands, as well, and I have seen several examples of shaft damage on valve stems and pump shafts from debris that has gotten into conventional packing. I see no opportunity for such damge to the shaft with the PSS-style seals, although it might be possible to damage the sealing faces. In that case, it is a lot cheaper to replace a carbon block or a SS face than a propellor shaft. One other friend of mine was also worried about the compressible hose that is used by the PSS seal. He thought that it was more susceptible to failure than a traditional shaft log hose. Since most traditional shaft log hoses are just that - a piece of common hose - I don't think that this is a significant concern. The Volvo seal, of course, does not have this problem at all. It does, however have a lower tolerance for a shaft that is not centered. Lastly, the PSS seal that I installed has a "vent hose" that taps into the carbon block. It is intended to ensure that the seal is always wet. On power boats, it is recommended that it be plumbed to a water source to ensure a constant supply of water to the seal. On my boat I installed a vent hose that leads from the seal up the side of the engine compartment well above the water line, where is is just open inside the boat. This line needs to be routed and secured very carefully, because it's failure in the wrong location could sink the boat. I did not need this vent hose on my last boat that had a PSS, but evidently they have decided that everyone should have one now. This is the one aspect of this design that I do not like. One other complaint I have seen involved the carbon dust that the seal will throw off while is is wearing in. It creates a black ring in the bilge and on the underside of the hatch over the shaft. I can understand how some people don't like this, but my wife doesn't complain about it, so I figure it can't be that bad. <g> So, when you try to sort out all these pros and cons, you end up having to make a "holistic" decision, based on what you believe are the most important issues. Data about seal failures is abysmal. Boaters like us do not report leaking shaft seals to anyone to compile a database of experience. I don't know whether Practical Sailor or the SSCA compile such data, either. Like I said - it is a religious issue. No demonstrable data or hard analysis to show one way or another. If we did not have things like this, what would we (guys) talk about?
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Post by On y va on Aug 14, 2016 17:10:41 GMT
....I installed a replacement seal after about 5 years, when I detected a tiny leak, but then went to a PSS seal the next year because I like them better. It is mostly a religious argument..... Same here. While some do seem to take it like a religious argument, I don't get it. The Volvo seal, by design, wears against your prop shaft. That's precisely why you are require to grease the seal, so you don't destroy your shaft. The PSS seal installs a wearable collar over your shaft, so the collar might wear and your shaft should last eternally. When I installed my PSS, the Volvo seal had, in fact, started to wear the shaft and was nearly unable to properly install the collar. This is a correct thing to point out, that Volvo seals (or similar) do eventually wear the shaft and will cause some form of groove on the shaft. But, so does your cutless bearing. Hence I replaced the shaft in my boat after 12 years. The Volvo seal(s) had worn quite a groove into the shaft (3.500 hours). Professionally I have installed all sorts of shaft seals and none of them are really bad. The biggest difference is price. And if you look at it from that point of view, the Volvo seal is just unbeatable in my view. It is of good quality, relatively cheap, reliable and easy to install. Would I go on a world cruise with it......probably not (mainly as you cannot change it easily in the water). But for the average cruiser, it is a pretty good choice. I looked at the PSS system for my boat too, but it has the same problem as the Volvo seal: you cannot change it in the water really. I know there are some video´s on Youtube with people changing Volvo Seals with the boat in the water......I would only consider that in an emergency maybe. For me and if it fits, I would like the Tidesmarine Sureseal system. As with that, you have a spare collar already on the shaft. And changing a leaking seal, is a simple matter which can be done in the water, with little water ingress. But, as with most Jeanneau´s, there is very little space between coupling and shaft seal....plus I have installed a R&D shaft coupling too, so another 25mm of shaft space lost......
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Post by Mistroma on Aug 14, 2016 18:36:51 GMT
Someone mentioned that it is easier to use the grease tube directly and squeeze the tip about 6mm inside the seal. I've found the straw method to be very quick, simple and effective. Much better and easier than pushing the tube tip inside and I'm doubtful that 6mm is far enough to grease the lip seals.
I said earlier that, from memory, I put a straw about 2.5cm inside the seal. I've just double-checked and revised slightly. Measurements below are from the original seal I recently replaced with a genuine Volvo seal part. 828422. I assume Jeanneau fit original Volvo seals but didn't notice a part number on the one I removed.
There's a void just behind the outer face of the seal (part you can see inside the boat). It starts about 5.5mm in from the face and extends to the first lip seal about 1.6mm from the outer face. This void had grease in it when the seal was removed, as did the inner gap between the lip seals.
The second lip seal is approx. 2.6mm in from the outer face.
I now try to place the straw approx. 2cm (not 2.5cm I recalled from memory) inside the seal. This is very easy as I just wrap some tape 2cm from end of the straw as a guide.
This means that the grease goes bewtween the outer and inner lip seals. I also put a little into the inner void , only about 0.5cc.
Perhaps someone else can confirm that I am correct in placing the grease bewteen the 2 lip seals. Volvo's instructions state 1cc every 200 hours runnung or at least annually and not to use too much grease. However, they do not specify exactly where to place the grease. It just says that the lip seals require grease.
N.B. All measurements are on a seal sized for a 30mm shaft.
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Post by sailbleu on Aug 14, 2016 21:00:49 GMT
Same here. While some do seem to take it like a religious argument, I don't get it. The Volvo seal, by design, wears against your prop shaft. That's precisely why you are require to grease the seal, so you don't destroy your shaft. The PSS seal installs a wearable collar over your shaft, so the collar might wear and your shaft should last eternally. When I installed my PSS, the Volvo seal had, in fact, started to wear the shaft and was nearly unable to properly install the collar. This is a correct thing to point out, that Volvo seals (or similar) do eventually wear the shaft and will cause some form of groove on the shaft. But, so does your cutless bearing. Hence I replaced the shaft in my boat after 12 years. The Volvo seal(s) had worn quite a groove into the shaft (3.500 hours).
Professionally I have installed all sorts of shaft seals and none of them are really bad. The biggest difference is price. And if you look at it from that point of view, the Volvo seal is just unbeatable in my view. It is of good quality, relatively cheap, reliable and easy to install. Would I go on a world cruise with it......probably not (mainly as you cannot change it easily in the water). But for the average cruiser, it is a pretty good choice. I looked at the PSS system for my boat too, but it has the same problem as the Volvo seal: you cannot change it in the water really. I know there are some video´s on Youtube with people changing Volvo Seals with the boat in the water......I would only consider that in an emergency maybe. For me and if it fits, I would like the Tidesmarine Sureseal system. As with that, you have a spare collar already on the shaft. And changing a leaking seal, is a simple matter which can be done in the water, with little water ingress. But, as with most Jeanneau´s, there is very little space between coupling and shaft seal....plus I have installed a R&D shaft coupling too, so another 25mm of shaft space lost...... There is quite some margin to where to put/fix the seal.so a groove can be bypassed by installing the seal a bit further. And further more on y va , as a professional I'm sure you are aware of the existence of a speedy sleeve , so why replace an expensive shaft just because of a groove when a very much cheaper speedy sleeve will cover that same groove. Regards
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Post by rxc on Aug 15, 2016 14:30:57 GMT
Oh, and I have to admit that I still have BOTH of the old Volvo seals on-board. They seem to be in pretty good shape, and are still usable. (My wife is starting to despair about the amount of "spare parts" I am still carrying on the boat.)
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Post by On y va on Aug 15, 2016 14:34:32 GMT
sailblue : have u fitted speedy seals on the shaft of your boat? How did you fit it without any damage over that length? And no I don´t know any professional who would fit these things. They are developped for industrial purposes, to keep production down time to a minimum. I think they are used in trucks too. But none of these float in water. But if you think speedy seals are the right solution for your boat, each to their own I always say. But not on my boat in any case. I had various reasons to fit a new shaft. rxc : two weeks or months after you have thrown something away.......you need it!
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Post by Damir on Aug 15, 2016 18:23:47 GMT
I have a Volvo seal mounted on Lucky ,and admit that lipseal is better and doing less damage to the shaft. The only disadvantages are that it is much more expensive than the Volvo seal and mount it should be by professional and everything has to be perfect clean and must be careful to do as graphite ring breaks easily, so if you have no reserves have big problems especially if you're on the open seas. For Volvo seal can be mounted easy and everyone can do it and on the open seas while the change lipseal I do not recommend it at all, it is recom. replaced always in the port and on dry land.
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Post by sailbleu on Aug 16, 2016 7:10:01 GMT
sailblue : have u fitted speedy seals on the shaft of your boat? How did you fit it without any damage over that length? And no I don´t know any professional who would fit these things. They are developped for industrial purposes, to keep production down time to a minimum. I think they are used in trucks too. But none of these float in water. But if you think speedy seals are the right solution for your boat, each to their own I always say. But not on my boat in any case. I had various reasons to fit a new shaft. rxc : two weeks or months after you have thrown something away.......you need it! On y va , Yes I've used a speedy sleeve to repair my raw water pump , you can find the essay in the hints & tips section. That was about 5 years ago , I posted the article in a later stage mind you , and all is well sofar. Well not really , because 2 days ago I had to dissasemble the pump again due to a leaking seal. Apparently that was going on for some time . These pumps have a bad reputation , also when the seal gives away the bearings are affected and need replacement too. As I only had one bearing in spare I know what to do this winter , I might just put a new speedy sleeve in while I'm at it , after I've tried to move the previous one . I mentioned that in the article. Thanks to the collector I added to divert the discharged water through the seal straight to the bilge area by means of a small hose . I'm sure you know what seawater does to an engine. Anyway it gave me a chance to check the speedy sleeve , and next to a tiny groove it was still in place. I suppose they also come in propellor shaft size. These days I would be affraid to replace an old shaft by a new one when read some horrible stories about the quality of some shafts . Pitting in no time etc. Regards
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Post by sailbleu on Aug 16, 2016 7:22:42 GMT
Oh, and I have to admit that I still have BOTH of the old Volvo seals on-board. They seem to be in pretty good shape, and are still usable. (My wife is starting to despair about the amount of "spare parts" I am still carrying on the boat.) Rxc , maybe you might make another boater very happy with one of them some day. You never know. After all it is a nice feeling to be aware that you've helped out someone else is it not. I also have a old , but still ok , spare lying here. As I said before , these seals are the real deal and I've not been given it the attention it needs , and yet it keeps pleasing me without any complaint. Wish our wives were like that Regards
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Post by On y va on Aug 16, 2016 16:08:14 GMT
Quote sailblue: These days I would be affraid to replace an old shaft by a new one when read some horrible stories about the quality of some shafts . Pitting in no time etc. Good point there, as this is very true. Always ask the certificate of the material when buying a shaft. (Same for anchor chains actually). Or buy one from a place you know supplies the correct materials.
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