|
|
Post by lolanz9414 on Jul 8, 2015 0:47:41 GMT
Hi Everyone,
As a new owner of a 2005 SO45 with classic rig and keel, I wondered if there was anyone racing this model in harbour and coastal racing, who has gained a PHRF handicap so that I can provide this when applying for one here in New Zealand.
Any performance tips appreciated too!
Regards
|
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Jul 8, 2015 3:45:53 GMT
Not sure how New Zealand is compared to the US ratings. but page 23 HERE has base ratings from 75-90, with an ave of 81 in North America any how. seems about right for a 45' boat frankly. Marty |
|
|
|
Post by MilesCAN439 on Jul 8, 2015 19:50:29 GMT
Don't even get me started with PHRF and what we've gone through. We rate 66 PHRF BC with no sprit. We added a 3 ft sprit and then applied for a PHRF NW rating, which we now have at a 93....
The 66 is a joke. The 93 seems reasonable. There are no other 439's rated yet so the 93 they told me is a base boat rating and they will adjust as needed.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Regards. |
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Jul 9, 2015 1:27:29 GMT
That is different....Usually BC is the lower speed, higher number than NW. My boat was 169 in NW< but 192 in BC. Found out later a hearing was done, and it is 189 in NW, 192 still in BC. There was a bunch of political who ha when the rating up north went to 192, Goal was to keep that owner out of the class in the middle.....any way....
This rating system works to a degree, but it is perfectly non-perfect!
Marty
|
|
|
|
Post by lolanz9414 on Jul 9, 2015 1:32:08 GMT
Thanks Marty phrf of .75 seems low compared with boats I race on. I crew on an old Farr 36fter, with a PHRF of .75 and the SO45 is quicker, longer etc. I guess I will have to submit the details required and take my chances!The boat has an ORC certificate with a handicap of 656.0, but as far as I know there is no relationship or quick conversion fro ORC to PHRF. |
|
|
|
Post by seattle519 on Jul 12, 2015 17:15:21 GMT
Don't even get me started with PHRF and what we've gone through. We rate 66 PHRF BC with no sprit. We added a 3 ft sprit and then applied for a PHRF NW rating, which we now have at a 93....
The 66 is a joke. The 93 seems reasonable. There are no other 439's rated yet so the 93 they told me is a base boat rating and they will adjust as needed.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Regards. Miles,
You and I met at Swiftsure this spring and I remember discussing your crazy rating issues. PHRF has it's problems but it can work well with similar types of boats. I agree, a 66 rating makes no sense for your boat. That is a problem with the rater, not the system. I would expect our 509 to be in the mid 60s when looking at similar heavy performance cruisers and their ratings. We will both need ORC measurements for Vic Maui.
In my opinion the single largest performance inhibitor on the SO boats is the keel design. If they were two feet longer, significantly narrower and 1000-2000 pounds lighter you would get the same righting moment and a lot better performance.
The 2005 SO45 is an older hull design with a similar keel. Try to find other similar age, weight, length, beam and draft boats and look at their ratings. Your ORC number has basis in the IMS rule which actually worked very well. You can use this number to find comparable boats as well.
If possible work with your rater and give him the comparisons you find. Get the justification for the number he comes up with before it is submitted. Ultimately we all want a fair rating that makes sense. I don't want the competition complaining about a gift rating but I also want a chance to compete.
Dean
PS: PHRF ratings in the NW are typically 10% slower (higher number) than other North America regions.
|
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Jul 12, 2015 19:31:44 GMT
I recall a number of years ago, due to the light winds around here, the ratings were lowered 10% across the board to make overall standings a bit more competitive. Not sure if it works or not. The bigger faster boats do not like current phrf handling of ratings, many are doing ONLY IRC.
The faster race cruise 40-45' boats are in the 30-60 range, the slower ones in the 60-80 range, with a few like the 409 in the 100-110 range. Some are slower yet that are heavier and lower SA-disp ratio's. Personally I feel a lot of the Jeanneau's could be 30 secs a mile faster than they are. BUT with most buyers being cruisers, the ratings reflect this. I feel a 40 properly speced has the ability to perform with a 1st 40.7 or J40 locally at 57.
The 349 is at 145 or so, an SF35 at 105, SF37 at 120...... a bit more speed should be doable out of the 349 too.
I'm probably off topic, but phrf at best seems to be am imperfect perfect rating system. Especially if you get some clubs to use the time on time system vs time on distance so favored by locals for the most part.
Marty
|
|
|
|
Post by lolanz9414 on Jul 29, 2015 3:12:42 GMT
I applied to Yachting New Zealand on Sunday evening and filled in their application form for a RHRF handicap.
Tuesday morning got a response with the certificate ; PHRF of 0.788.
Top marks for service YNZ! Hopefully the handicap is good too!
|
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Jul 29, 2015 3:32:16 GMT
Is your rating a tot or tod style. I have not seen decimal ratings for phrf frankly. I'm sure they may exist. This appears to be more of a time on time rating than a time on distance.
Marty
|
|
|
|
Post by seattle519 on Jul 29, 2015 17:03:40 GMT
I applied to Yachting New Zealand on Sunday evening and filled in their application form for a RHRF handicap. Tuesday morning got a response with the certificate ; PHRF of 0.788. Top marks for service YNZ! Hopefully the handicap is good too! They are giving you good service, your boat is already listed online. Your rating of 0.788 puts you next to a Beneteau First 10R that has PHRF NW ratings of 81 and 84. Seems like a reasonable place to start. I am uncertain if there is a way to directly convert the decimal NZ rating to the US integer system. This gives me a good data point to reference to when we get our boat rated this fall. Good luck and have fun racing! |
|
|
|
Post by lolanz9414 on Oct 29, 2015 16:09:06 GMT
Last weekend we competed in the 2015 Coastal Classic; a 120 mile race from Auckland to Russell. We had 20+knts on the nose for the race. 150 boats started.69 made it. We entered the "no extras" (main and gib only) and came third on line and third on handicap. Only three boats finishes in the division, out of 10 that started. We used the mainsail that was delivered with the boat 10 years ago!
We ended up 4 hours behind two new Hanse's, becuase of tactics more than boat ability.
|
|
|
|
Post by seattle519 on Jan 14, 2016 23:45:35 GMT
As a follow up we have started to compete with a provisional PHRF rating of 63. This compares with a Canadian SO439 at 93.
We have also received our provisional ORC certificate for Vic-Maui:
Offshore TOD 556.2 TOT 1.0788
Inshore TOD 630.1 TOT 1.0713
The ORC measurement is based on the IMS model. Back in the 1990s we did a bit of IMS racing. It is more complicated but is much more accurate than PHRF.
These ratings include running our asymmetric spinnakers either on the bow or on the pole. |
|
|
|
Post by MilesCAN439 on Jan 15, 2016 17:03:12 GMT
Dean,
Oddly our PHRF BC rating is 66 and our PHRF NW rating is 93. Don't ask me to explain. I figure in reality we are probably somewhere around a mid to hi 80's rathing. This is more in line with another similar boat in PHRF NE but is shoal draft. Anyway VicMaui is ORC so we haven't worried about things too much.
Tim
|
|
|
|
Post by seattle519 on Jan 15, 2016 18:09:55 GMT
Dean, Oddly our PHRF BC rating is 66 and our PHRF NW rating is 93. Don't ask me to explain. I figure in reality we are probably somewhere around a mid to hi 80's rathing. This is more in line with another similar boat in PHRF NE but is shoal draft. Anyway VicMaui is ORC so we haven't worried about things too much. Tim Tim,
It's unfortunate that BC uses two PHRF systems. It certainly makes for confusion.
In two light wind Southern Sound races we have sailed side-by-side with several Beneteau 40.7 rated at 57. In general they seem to have slightly faster boat speed. The entire class has similar ratings so we have been comparing our speed to a variety of other types. It seems as though our rating at 63 is close to what it should be. It remains to be seen how we will perform in moderate to heavy winds (rare in Puget Sound). I also used a formula and converted our ORC TOT rating to PHRF and came up with 61.
While your rating at 93 seemed a little high to me, no way does 66 make any sense especially after looking at the PHRF BC fleet list. The raters have not done their homework on your boat. Our boats are performance/cruisers not cruiser/racers. Big difference.
Have you started working on your ORC certificate? I have found their organization to be very efficient and helpful. They already had the hull offset file for the 509/519 in their system (I was surprised) so they probably have yours as well. We are scheduled for our measurement on March 13th.
Once you have your ORC certificate you will have scientific data to protest your PHRF BC number.
Are you attending the navigation/routing class this weekend?
Dean
|
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Jan 16, 2016 1:41:42 GMT
The BC to PS ratings have been an issue for awhile. My boat initially came up with a 159, meanwhile at a roundezvous in 07?!? ran into another Arcadia, he had been racing with a 193? or there abouts for years. So started checking, in my case, a former crew was now an upper rating person here in the Seattle area, and mentioned a protest that put the base at 188, now 189 with the ratings needing to be divisible by 3.
I guess the phrf-nw board needs something to do with there time at meetings.......
Either of you going to be at the Seattle dinner the 30th?
Marty
|
|
|
|
Post by MilesCAN439 on Jan 18, 2016 22:48:05 GMT
Dean,
I think that it was PHRF NW's intention to review our rating after a few races after I brought up the discrepancy between the 2. BC's rating for us is ridiculous but since our main goal is ORC anyway we have just left it as it is. Swiftsure is the NW rating anyway and we are really racing against offshore boats. Our ORC is scheduled for 2 dates in February, not committed to 1 yet. Just received our initial ORC rating.
We had other crew at the weather course this past weekend. I didn't attend this one.
Tim
|
|
