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Post by On y va on Feb 8, 2015 13:11:03 GMT
Hey On Y Va, Just FYI it wasn't me who said that, I think it was ElectricMonk, some confusing formatting in the way the post was quoted. FWIW I agree with you on all of this, particularly the men and women part . David Ooops, sorry David. My mistake
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Post by so40gtb on Feb 8, 2015 15:33:21 GMT
Voyageur had a complete 12V system rebuild last winter/spring. Relevant to this thread is the starter battery relocation. I wanted to achieve a minimum of 400 AH capacity with the house batteries, which meant four of them, which took all available SO40 battery box space. After much needless angst over where to put the starter battery, it went into the aft berth's storage locker, in the aft section thereof. I chose an Optima Blue Top 34M battery, having had good service with one in our SO34.2. This battery appears to have plenty of capacity for the purpose.. The battery is placed in the bottom of the locker. I crafted a lower support shelf and from outdoor-grade plywood, to provide a stable platform. The battery must be constrained from movement in all dimensions, so the scheme included an aft end side, hull-side positioning bar, and top hold-down arm. Here's the picture of the shelf/frame, ready for battery placement: Here's the picture of the installed battery, without the hold-down arm: The overall project moved the anchor windlass from the starter to house batteries, due to the current limitations of the Balmar Duo-Charge unit that charges the starter battery.
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Post by so36idavid on Feb 13, 2015 4:13:48 GMT
So40chi,
Do you have a tie-down for that baby? I had some webbing straps made up by strapworks. Pretty inexpensive insurance in case of a knockdown, you don't really need 40lb of lead bouncing around in your boat.
David
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Post by hoppy on Feb 13, 2015 9:04:32 GMT
so36idavid Here's the picture of the installed battery, without the hold-down arm:
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Post by On y va on Feb 13, 2015 14:57:06 GMT
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Post by hoppy on Feb 13, 2015 15:58:28 GMT
better than a visitor opening the cupboard and finding a strap-on
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Post by so40gtb on Feb 14, 2015 3:03:06 GMT
Touche', Hoppy!
The hold-down bar goes across the "Optima" label side of the battery and is held to the aft battery wall and locker dividing wall by screws. The aft battery wall is fixed to the front of wall of the locker by screws, as are the fronts of the support shelf and the side-frame. The battery is constrained in all dimensions.
I thought about using a strap to hold the battery in place, but I decided that fixed restraints were a better solution.
--Karl
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Post by electricmonk on Mar 12, 2015 19:55:33 GMT
On Ya,
a tad harsh I think.
Please read my post before you decide I talk rubbish, sorry but you're wrong, very very wrong, at least I write from a position of first hand knowledge and not hearsay. Nor am I impressed or swayed by spurious claims from manufactures anxious to get their hands on your cash. Disagree with me if you must but do so at your peril, how you waste you money is of no import to me.
I am dying to know what you think the actual difference in lead acid cells, starter vs deep cycle is - apart from the difference I have already described in my post above? and please explain exactly how significant these differences are in the grand scheme, as far as I am concerned a WELL MADE lead acid cell is a well made lead cell - end of story and reputable manufacturers will support that view. If I talk rubbish perhaps you can explain how I manage to get the life I do enjoy (8 years +) out of basic well made lead acid cells? they don't purport to be anything special, just lead acid cells.
Many years ago I had a very close relationship with a battery manufacturer I leant all about lead acid cells first hand nothing much has changed in lead acid technology since then so exactly what is the rubbish you accuse me of?
A question for you IF starter and leisure batteries are so different why is the charging regime the same for both? indeed why do they quote CCA for "leisure batteries"? the only differences are in plate chemistry or plate separation, acid medium; but they are all lead acid.
I could go on and ask you exactly how many starter motors have you have personally overhauled? how many have you personally removed from engines? how many have you seen as a solidified molten mass - because the battery couldn't supply the volts? (ohms law is not applicable to inductive loads despite what we read on here from time to time but what the hell do I know?) This stuff was my living for many years I've repaired replaced and overhauled a few (hundred) along with the engines they were bolted on to.
The problem I think is that as users of this equipment we have only our own experiences to go by and we have no control group to compare our experience with. So if you use "leisure batteries" as opposed to "starter batteries" you really have no idea what would have been. My only contribution is that in my position in the engineering industry albeit many years ago I did see hundreds of installations of batteries, charging and starting systems and lots of cases where they had either worked very well or where they had failed. That experience has guided my own choice of equipment and so far I am not dissatisfied with the outcomes.
I put forward posts on here to help the community, you are at liberty to take advantage of my experience, disagree if you want, but please it's not rubbish.
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Post by entourage on Apr 1, 2015 0:11:26 GMT
We are perhaps a little more energy intensive than most.... We started with 4x110ah House batteries and 1x110ah start but have increased to 6x110ah by locating 2 extra batteries in the bilge forward of the motor. Our challenge is to get enough charge out of our alternator - on the low end of satisfactory at the moment - and thinking of putting in an alternator upgrade to 160amp (from current 80amp) with full serpentine multi grooved belt.
Also, our anchor windlass operates from the start battery - and draws more than the alternator can deliver - so need to have the full capacity battery for that function too - and bigger alternator would help there too....
Entourage is a 42DS
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Post by hoppy on Jun 17, 2015 11:07:48 GMT
Voyageur had a complete 12V system rebuild last winter/spring. Relevant to this thread is the starter battery relocation. I wanted to achieve a minimum of 400 AH capacity with the house batteries, which meant four of them, which took all available SO40 battery box space. After much needless angst over where to put the starter battery, it went into the aft berth's storage locker, in the aft section thereof. I chose an Optima Blue Top 34M battery, having had good service with one in our SO34.2. This battery appears to have plenty of capacity for the purpose.. The battery is placed in the bottom of the locker. I crafted a lower support shelf and from outdoor-grade plywood, to provide a stable platform. The battery must be constrained from movement in all dimensions, so the scheme included an aft end side, hull-side positioning bar, and top hold-down arm. Here's the picture of the shelf/frame, ready for battery placement: Here's the picture of the installed battery, without the hold-down arm: The overall project moved the anchor windlass from the starter to house batteries, due to the current limitations of the Balmar Duo-Charge unit that charges the starter battery. Finally decided how to proceed. I will do like so40chi and install the extra battery in the port cupboard. I'll move my existing starter battery (Victron 110 AGM) which is the same as my house (and same age) there and wire it up as the 4th house. The locker already houses the AP computer. Then I'll get a new starter from one of the stores nearby. What I'm not sure about is whether the starter also needs to be an AGM for the charger?
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Post by hoppy on Jun 18, 2015 8:15:36 GMT
Found a store just outside of the marina gate that sells Optima and many other brands. I'll think I'll be getting the Optima bluetop 75ah as my starter. Need to figure out if it's better to move the starter to the locker or leave it under the berth and put the 4th house in the locker. It seems more logical to have the 4 house under the berths. I really don't get the current house wiring. One battery has 3 cables connected to + and 2 to -. The 2nd battery has 1 cable on + and 2 cables on - (one from shunt and one from 1st battery). The third battery has just one + & - cable.
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Post by optimystic on Jun 18, 2015 17:56:57 GMT
I installed a group 24 1000mca seavolt that weighs 44lbs. Works well. More is always better for a starting battery.
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Post by On y va on Jun 18, 2015 21:00:33 GMT
On Ya, a tad harsh I think. Please read my post before you decide I talk rubbish, sorry but you're wrong, very very wrong, at least I write from a position of first hand knowledge and not hearsay. Nor am I impressed or swayed by spurious claims from manufactures anxious to get their hands on your cash. Disagree with me if you must but do so at your peril, how you waste you money is of no import to me. I am dying to know what you think the actual difference in lead acid cells, starter vs deep cycle is - apart from the difference I have already described in my post above? and please explain exactly how significant these differences are in the grand scheme, as far as I am concerned a WELL MADE lead acid cell is a well made lead cell - end of story and reputable manufacturers will support that view. If I talk rubbish perhaps you can explain how I manage to get the life I do enjoy (8 years +) out of basic well made lead acid cells? they don't purport to be anything special, just lead acid cells. Many years ago I had a very close relationship with a battery manufacturer I leant all about lead acid cells first hand nothing much has changed in lead acid technology since then so exactly what is the rubbish you accuse me of? A question for you IF starter and leisure batteries are so different why is the charging regime the same for both? indeed why do they quote CCA for "leisure batteries"? the only differences are in plate chemistry or plate separation, acid medium; but they are all lead acid. I could go on and ask you exactly how many starter motors have you have personally overhauled? how many have you personally removed from engines? how many have you seen as a solidified molten mass - because the battery couldn't supply the volts? (ohms law is not applicable to inductive loads despite what we read on here from time to time but what the hell do I know?) This stuff was my living for many years I've repaired replaced and overhauled a few (hundred) along with the engines they were bolted on to. The problem I think is that as users of this equipment we have only our own experiences to go by and we have no control group to compare our experience with. So if you use "leisure batteries" as opposed to "starter batteries" you really have no idea what would have been. My only contribution is that in my position in the engineering industry albeit many years ago I did see hundreds of installations of batteries, charging and starting systems and lots of cases where they had either worked very well or where they had failed. That experience has guided my own choice of equipment and so far I am not dissatisfied with the outcomes. I put forward posts on here to help the community, you are at liberty to take advantage of my experience, disagree if you want, but please it's not rubbish. Maybe it is harsh, but it is just not true what you are saying. And this was also the main reason I left this forum and all other forums for a while. There is just so much bad advise and nonsense written. I have encountered comments that are just plain dangerous....but hey, it´s not my boat, so who cares . I have been dealing with yacht maintenance and services for 20+ years now and have dealt with hundreds of yachts with a huge variety of issues, repairs and problems. And yes, also startermotors, charging systems and a huge variety of batteries and battery issues. So I like to think I know a little about it. And what you are saying about charging regimes is not true yet again. Sure, if you buy some standard, cheap charger, they don´t make a differentiation between what battery bank they need to charge. But a good (marine) charger, certainly has a separate charging exit for starter batteries and service batteries, the starter battery output being much lower in amps than the service batteries. I.e. a Mastervolt charger, has a specific charger exit for the starter batterie(s) at 3 amps trickle charge and 20, 40, 80, 100 Amps (or whatever model it is) for the service side. You can even set which type of starter batteries or service batteries you have, so the charging regime is done correctly in accordance to the type of battery. Which is the reason my starter and bowthruster batteries lasted more than 10 years (AGM´s spirals connected to the engine charging exit). But, just view the video of the MD of Sterling. I think he explains it very well why there is a difference. But maybe he is somewhat of a novice in this field . Ofcourse all these batteries are similar in principle. Same as all cars have 4 wheels and an engine. But with one you can climb mountains and the other you can win the Formula 1. But you cannot do both, eventhough they are both cars.
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Post by so40gtb on Jun 19, 2015 3:29:59 GMT
The "standard" wiring is not the best and it's likely that your boat suffered worsened circuits at the hands of prior owners. When I rebuilt Voyageur's 12V distribution last year, I added a fuse at each battery, one in the Balmar alternator lead, another in the charger/inverter/solar connection line, and yet another in the "house" feed to the 12V breaker panel at the navigation station. All this to protect the wires and meet ABYC standards, given the upgraded battery capacity.
The 12V house distribution panel, at the navigation station, is where the worst of the ex-owner kludges are likely to be found. Some may have been caused by the commissioning dealer, when electronics beyond the "Jeanneau standard" were fitted after receipt from Jeanneau but before delivery to the buyer. For example, the autopilot return on Voyageur went not to a 12V common bus bar, via a circular terminal lug, but rather to a friction lug plugged into the 12V instrument common "comb" located in the aft port corner of the panel cabinet. So a high-current return was mixed in with low-current returns. Not a recipe for safety or reliable performance. Let's just say that I had personal traumatic experience with that before fixing it.
Most decent chargers have multiple outputs and the ability to configure each for the particular chemistry of the battery downstream. So one output can be configured for flooded, another for AGM. On Voyageur, I use the Balmar Dual Charge unit to keep the starter battery charged. The primary charger/inverter feeds the house bank, which in turn feeds the Dual Charge and then, presuming there's been some discharge of the starter battery, that component. I'm not convinced that this scheme maintains a high degree of charge in the starter battery, but I've had no issues during the first year of use. Time will tell!
--Karl
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Post by hoppy on Jun 19, 2015 6:34:27 GMT
so40chi
I had assumed that your battery was in the larger of the two lockers, but now that I have my 75ah bluetop I realise you fitted your 50ah in the smaller locker under the shelves
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Post by hoppy on Jul 22, 2015 19:23:58 GMT
Bluetop is installed and hidden No strap on in, I have wood to hold it down.
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Post by vasko on Jul 23, 2015 17:46:26 GMT
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Post by hoppy on Jul 23, 2015 18:34:58 GMT
Thanks Vasko but no need. My 75ah bluetop fits nicely in the cupboard and I've gained a shelf for dumping my clothes
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