|
|
Post by hoppy on Jan 15, 2015 16:59:01 GMT
I was googling yesterday about the DIN/ISO numbers for 10mm chains to understand the difference (need to find out which I have for when I replace my windlass) and then I started seeing sites talking about chain grades. Whilst I knew not all chains of the same size would be "equal", I was not aware of the grading rating and even talk about some being "certified" It sounds as if the common "cheap" anchor chain is perhaps grade 30 or perhaps even less. Reading on one makers site (Maggio in Italy) highlighted to me the importance and the advantages of correctly choosing your chain. What interests me is the possibility of reducing from 10mm to 8mm but increasing the strength which for the same length can save a considerable amount of weight. One example I found was 80m of 10mm weighing 184kg whilst 8mm was 116kg, a 64kg saving. Alternatively for 50m of 10mm you can have 80m of 8mm at the same weight Grade 40 10mm 1250kg working limit & 63 kN breaking limit www.aquachain.it/pagina/en/12/AQUA-4.aspxGrade 70 8mm 1400kg working limit & 70 kN breaking limit www.aquachain.it/pagina/en/14/AQUA-7.aspxMore of my chain is starting to look nasty and I already had to dump 10m of the original chain when I added an extra 30 or 40 m last year. As I will upgrade the windlass in spring I'm now wondering if I should go full on and replace the chain totally.  I'm guessing that grade 40 is much stronger than what I currently have and 80m of 8mm grade 70 would be a nice weight/strength double improvement. Anyone looked into the chain grade stuff? |
|
|
|
Post by vasko on Jan 15, 2015 17:45:01 GMT
what I need to be able to extend my chain ? I have 40 meters but what to have 60m and I'm struggling to find how to extend my existing chain and still all to be good with the windlass .. any suggestions ? windlass : last time we changed ours in Greece - this company as the best price : www.svb24.com/en/category/lofrans-windlasses.htmloriginally we try to get with a Greek dealer but it turned out the price was about 600eur more .. chain - you chain looks like you have spent sometime in Metana  |
|
|
|
Post by On y va on Jan 15, 2015 17:52:40 GMT
Yes, it is interesting about all the chain grades. Grade 30 is hardly used nowadays, as most standard calibrated chains are now grade 40 (CE EN818-3/EN24565 ISO 4565). And in a way that is sufficient in normal cruising circumstances, besides not too expensive. However in your case hoppy, as you are changing your anchor winch, there is something to be said about your way of thinking. As a good length (say 75m) of 10mm chain in a 40ft light boat like ours, certainly has a negative effect on the sea motion characteristics of these boats. As I really want to head for Patagonia, I am also very much looking at my anchor gear as this is vital. More chain length (75m or pref 100m) and a heavy anchor. So saving weight on the chain, would be quite good. But.....I really like the Leroy & Somer anchor winches, as they actually do the kgs and ratings they say they will do. All others don´t meet their given ratings. However, as there are no spares available anymore for the Leroy & Somer winches, I think I have to look at a new anchor winch too  |
|
|
|
Post by hoppy on Jan 15, 2015 17:58:42 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by hoppy on Jan 15, 2015 18:10:40 GMT
Yes, it is interesting about all the chain grades. Grade 30 is hardly used nowadays, as most standard calibrated chains are now grade 40 (CE EN818-3/EN24565 ISO 4565). And in a way that is sufficient in normal cruising circumstances, besides not too expensive. However in your case hoppy, as you are changing your anchor winch, there is something to be said about your way of thinking. As a good length (say 75m) of 10mm chain in a 40ft light boat like ours, certainly has a negative effect on the sea motion characteristics of these boats. As I really want to head for Patagonia, I am also very much looking at my anchor gear as this is vital. More chain length (75m or pref 100m) and a heavy anchor. So saving weight on the chain, would be quite good. But.....I really like the Leroy & Somer anchor winches, as they actually do the kgs and ratings they say they will do. All others don´t meet their given ratings. However, as there are no spares available anymore for the Leroy & Somer winches, I think I have to look at a new anchor winch too When I added to my chain it was as a "cheap" and easy way to extend my rode without replacing the windlass so I could have a chain rope rode. I was thinking now when I am getting a new windlass to go back to 60m or even a little less plus rope. Learning about the grades etc has me thinking a little less than the 90m (75m) or so I have now plus 30-40m rope. That will still almost always ensure I don't run out of chain when misjudging med mooring and the extra rope for special occasions  Patagonia sounds adventurous (and too cold for me). 100m of 8mm grade 70 sounds to me the way to go for you. |
|
|
|
Post by On y va on Jan 15, 2015 19:03:09 GMT
One problem here though hoppy, is that an 8mm crown only can take 14mm line. Whereas a 10mm crown, can take 16mm lines, which defeats the object a little of having grade 7 chain as 14mm lines generally have like 4 tonnes breakloads and 16mm 5 tonnes. Out of interest, what anchor winch are you considering?? |
|
|
|
Post by hoppy on Jan 15, 2015 19:43:21 GMT
One problem here though hoppy, is that an 8mm crown only can take 14mm line. Whereas a 10mm crown, can take 16mm lines, which defeats the object a little of having grade 7 chain as 14mm lines generally have like 4 tonnes breakloads and 16mm 5 tonnes. Out of interest, what anchor winch are you considering?? Good point... The likelyhood that I would use 75m + rope and it's in weather that would stress the ropes breaking strength is hopefully low. 75m gives me 7:1 in 10m water which should be enough (I hope) I've jumped back to a Lofrans X2 as it is their replacement for the Airon. Originally I was thinking that a 10mm chain and rope was not an option, but talking to a guy from Lofrans it's not a problem and it's also fine for 8mm/14mm. I would like the 1500w but only if my existing wires can handle the amp draw. In all likelyhood I'll be getting the 1000w. |
|
|
|
Post by electricmonk on Jan 15, 2015 21:10:58 GMT
what I need to be able to extend my chain ? I have 40 meters but what to have 60m and I'm struggling to find how to extend my existing chain and still all to be good with the windlass .. any suggestions ? windlass : last time we changed ours in Greece - this company as the best price : www.svb24.com/en/category/lofrans-windlasses.htmloriginally we try to get with a Greek dealer but it turned out the price was about 600eur more .. chain - you chain looks like you have spent sometime in Metana Vasco, You need a CROSBY chain joiner, they are the only joiner that's warranted to be stronger than the chain itself. They come out at 29mm pitch (10mm version) which is just about OK for both a 28mm pitch and 30mm pitch chain - they click a bit as they go round the gypsy but the chain wont jump off. Try to steer clear of the stainless ones, they look nice but they're not strong. |
|
|
|
Post by On y va on Jan 15, 2015 21:59:28 GMT
One problem here though hoppy, is that an 8mm crown only can take 14mm line. Whereas a 10mm crown, can take 16mm lines, which defeats the object a little of having grade 7 chain as 14mm lines generally have like 4 tonnes breakloads and 16mm 5 tonnes. Out of interest, what anchor winch are you considering?? Good point... The likelyhood that I would use 75m + rope and it's in weather that would stress the ropes breaking strength is hopefully low. 75m gives me 7:1 in 10m water which should be enough (I hope) I've jumped back to a Lofrans X2 as it is their replacement for the Airon. Originally I was thinking that a 10mm chain and rope was not an option, but talking to a guy from Lofrans it's not a problem and it's also fine for 8mm/14mm. I would like the 1500w but only if my existing wires can handle the amp draw. In all likelyhood I'll be getting the 1000w. Yes, I sort of came out at the Lofrans X2 as the best candidate too. Alternatively the Lewmar V3. I believe 1000 Watt will do, considering we now have 800W. And then (for me) with 75metres of 8mm grade 7 chain. |
|
|
|
Post by hoppy on Jan 15, 2015 22:37:05 GMT
Now the next challenge is finding the right companies that make the good chain. At the moment Maggi is the only chain maker I know of and I only know of them from www.jimmygreen.co.uk/products/chandlery/calibrated-anchor-chainIn spring I might take my car down to Corfu if I find I have too much gear to move down. Maybe as I go into Italy I an drop by the factory to pick up 75m of chain |
|
|
|
Post by hoppy on Jan 15, 2015 23:07:38 GMT
Some good info on chains kb.rocna.com/kb/ChainBeen look on English chandlery sites for chains and not many have enough information to allow someone to make an informed choice. When they have mentioned grade it's almost always G30. Swedish sites are useless... I looked at Australian sites and they different standards for sizing and grade  |
|
|
|
Post by Don Reaves on Jan 16, 2015 2:45:36 GMT
Practical Sailor has done a number of reviews on anchor chain and manufacturers. For instance this article from the June 2014 issue mentions Peerless (their subsidiary Acco), Campbell, Maggi, and Canada Metals Pacific. They have also had discussions about whether it makes sense to use G-30, G-40, G-43, or G-70 chain. It's worth reading if you're considering a switch. |
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Jan 16, 2015 5:04:12 GMT
If you like the idea of one size smaller chain in G7 vs G4, the rope part may be to look at some of the newer "mega braid" rope lines. You can go a smaller size, same stretch, with the same to a bit more breaking strength as 3 strand. It also goes into a MUCH smaller pile and coils easir than 3 strand. I've been kicking around this type of option for myself frankly. In my case, this would allow a 2-5KG heavier anchor, which at the end of the day is what really holds you in a BLOW. As all chain or chain rode will be on the anchor only in a force 10 or above if that is something you may need to worry about.
Not sure frankly there is a right or wrong per say......but worth thinking about none the less.
Marty
|
|
|
|
Post by touchngo on Jan 16, 2015 7:38:46 GMT
Some good info on chains kb.rocna.com/kb/ChainBeen look on English chandlery sites for chains and not many have enough information to allow someone to make an informed choice. When they have mentioned grade it's almost always G30. Swedish sites are useless... I looked at Australian sites and they different standards for sizing and grade Have a look at Vyv Cox's site. coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/default.aspx He's a metallurgist and has written frequently in Yachting Monthly and Practical Boat Owner. Has some good comments about Chain, Links, and....Anchors. One of the frequently debated aspects of moving to higher graded chain and a smaller size to get the weight out of the bow, is the effect it has on the catenary. In a blow the catenary supposedly disappears as the rode effectively becomes a straight pull to the anchor. This is certainly Vyv's assertion. In my owne case, I have swum on my anchor in a blow and still seen a fair amount of catenary in effect, in sustained winds of 40+ knots. This was whilst anchored in 6 Meters with a sand bottom at Naousa, Paros. We have 80 Meters of 10mm Grade 40 with no links and a Rocna 20Kg on the end (no swivel). I was quite grateful for all that weight and anchor down there. We could have chosen to deploy another anchor or more (I still have my old Delta and Britany as well as my new Fortress on the boat) but didn't drag at any point so never really felt nervous enough to go that route. We have an extra water tank in the bow as well, and when added to the bikes, extra bits of chain, anchors, food to feed a famine etc... the boat is well down on her lines. But we'll be cruising, not racing so I'll take comfort, security, and peace of mind (as well as that extra dollar or two in my wallet), over the marginal weight advantage. Having said that, I have no intention of cruising Patagonia and certainly will be avoiding areas that are frequented with 70+ knots etc... (the video on Rocna's website is great advertising, but I have no intention of ever trying it myself). Your mileage may well differ. Cheers, PT |
|
|
|
Post by sailbleu on Jan 16, 2015 8:47:35 GMT
Yes, it is interesting about all the chain grades. Grade 30 is hardly used nowadays, as most standard calibrated chains are now grade 40 (CE EN818-3/EN24565 ISO 4565). And in a way that is sufficient in normal cruising circumstances, besides not too expensive. However in your case hoppy, as you are changing your anchor winch, there is something to be said about your way of thinking. As a good length (say 75m) of 10mm chain in a 40ft light boat like ours, certainly has a negative effect on the sea motion characteristics of these boats. As I really want to head for Patagonia, I am also very much looking at my anchor gear as this is vital. More chain length (75m or pref 100m) and a heavy anchor. So saving weight on the chain, would be quite good. But.....I really like the Leroy & Somer anchor winches, as they actually do the kgs and ratings they say they will do. All others don´t meet their given ratings. However, as there are no spares available anymore for the Leroy & Somer winches, I think I have to look at a new anchor winch too I respect your opinion but strongly disagree. One time I've changed my chain into a 10 mm , the winch had a hell of a hard time hauling the anchor in. And yes engine and gear were/are ok , and yes the leads/wires are more than thick enough to handle the amps , it's just that a 1000watt will not do for that heavy chain and anchor. Anyway , they are out of business and sooner or later I will renew the winch , as I think it is an important part I intend to not cut on the expense. I also had the thought of replacing my chain with a rope. About 10 meters of 8 or even 10 mm chain and a dyneema line attached to it. Maybe in a few years because a few months ago I bought a new (as good as new) 80 meter chain 8mm. They say the lifespand of a chain - frequently used should not exeed 6 years . Last summer mine broke at 15 meters , of course the most used lenght , remember I have a shallow keel and very often anchor in 4 or so meters depth . Therefor it's wise after a few years to reverse the chain , turn the end into the beginning. After my chain faillure I'm not taking anymore chances , it's 80 meter long now and anually I will be cutting the first meter off because of the rust on those shackles due to the transition of galvanised steel to s/s d-coupling/anchor. Galvanic corrosion right. Also use a damper on the chain going to the clamps , it saves the winch and chain by absorbing the shocks. Regards |
|
|
|
Post by hoppy on Jan 16, 2015 9:14:22 GMT
When they added the extra length to my chain last year, the cut off something like the last 10m that was having a lazy life always at the bottom of the anchor locker Last summer mine broke at 15 meters , of course the most used lenght , remember I have a shallow keel and very often anchor in 4 or so meters depth . I often anchor in 4m too. 50cm does not make that much of a difference often enough Here I am standing on the bottom checking my depth sounders accuracy   |
|
|
|
Post by hoppy on Jan 16, 2015 9:41:53 GMT
Interesting video but frustrating ending |
|
|
|
Post by sailbleu on Jan 16, 2015 10:37:40 GMT
When they added the extra length to my chain last year, the cut off something like the last 10m that was having a lazy life always at the bottom of the anchor locker Last summer mine broke at 15 meters , of course the most used lenght , remember I have a shallow keel and very often anchor in 4 or so meters depth . I often anchor in 4m too. 50cm does not make that much of a difference often enough Here I am standing on the bottom checking my depth sounders accuracy You obviously need a waxing. Some coppercoat after ?  Regards |
|
|
|
Post by hoppy on Jan 16, 2015 10:54:03 GMT
ha ha ha  |
|
|
|
Post by On y va on Jan 16, 2015 13:51:57 GMT
But.....I really like the Leroy & Somer anchor winches, as they actually do the kgs and ratings they say they will do. All others don´t meet their given ratings. However, as there are no spares available anymore for the Leroy & Somer winches, I think I have to look at a new anchor winch too I respect your opinion but strongly disagree. One time I've changed my chain into a 10 mm , the winch had a hell of a hard time hauling the anchor in. And yes engine and gear were/are ok , and yes the leads/wires are more than thick enough to handle the amps , it's just that a 1000watt will not do for that heavy chain and anchor. Anyway , they are out of business and sooner or later I will renew the winch , as I think it is an important part I intend to not cut on the expense. I also had the thought of replacing my chain with a rope. About 10 meters of 8 or even 10 mm chain and a dyneema line attached to it. Maybe in a few years because a few months ago I bought a new (as good as new) 80 meter chain 8mm. They say the lifespand of a chain - frequently used should not exeed 6 years . Last summer mine broke at 15 meters , of course the most used lenght , remember I have a shallow keel and very often anchor in 4 or so meters depth . Therefor it's wise after a few years to reverse the chain , turn the end into the beginning. After my chain faillure I'm not taking anymore chances , it's 80 meter long now and anually I will be cutting the first meter off because of the rust on those shackles due to the transition of galvanised steel to s/s d-coupling/anchor. Galvanic corrosion right. Also use a damper on the chain going to the clamps , it saves the winch and chain by absorbing the shocks. Regards I have had 10mm chain for 15 years now and never had a problem hauling the anchor. And I have anchored A LOT. But if you pull the boat towards your anchor using your anchor winch, you are doing something wrong anyway and yes then you need 1000 watt, pref 1500 watt. If you slowly motor towards your anchor, I cannot see what problem there would be lifting the anchor. A 500 watt winch will do that too. What I totally miss in all this, is that the chain is actually vital to holding the anchor in place. That´s why the alternative to chain, is lead line. WEIGHT!! So, 10 metres of chain and the rest dyneema......I wish you good luck and hope you have good insurance. That is also why I rather have 10mm chain than 8mm, purely because of it´s weight (besides strength). Downside obviously being that all this weight is at the extremity of the boat. So it´s a choice, as usual. (hence I would take off the anchor off the bow during longer crossings). |
|
|
|
Post by electricmonk on Jan 16, 2015 14:45:13 GMT
On Ya
I agree, 10mm chain weighs in at 2.2 KG per mtr, 8mm 1.6 when you put it in the sea it weighs less, something to do with a Greek guy. If a windlass is having trouble then the windlass or its battery is the problem. The motors used in windlasses are the same as 4x4 winches and they can lift the truck - in air.
As far as anchoring is concerned 10mm chain will always work better than 8mm, stretched tight 10mm chain will be stronger than 8mm. My 37 had 10mm chain as does my 43 I wouldn't go down a size. I have met several owners who have added 50 mtrs of chain but then you find they are 38 - 50 ft boats with 8mm chain - no wonder they have issues. These boats are usually Bavs - which were supplied without any ground tackle - it was an extra.
a note to the original poster, 10mm chain is supplied in many standards but 2 pitches, 28mm and 30mm. Jeanneau usually supply 30mm. I ordered some 30mm from Athens, sent them pictures, measurements, and specifications, they supplied 28mm and claimed it was all the same . . . . . . In the end I bought it from Bradney Chain in the UK for 30% of the Greek price.
|
|
|
|
Post by On y va on Jan 16, 2015 17:03:46 GMT
A little side note: another reason a lot of winches slip or cause trouble, is that most people never clean the conical surfaces which hold the crown. Salt and crap will form a black polished residue on the conical pressure areas of the winch and after a while, this gets rather slippery.
Best way to get this off is with petrol (i.e. a little from your outboard). but whatever you do, do not use any sanding paper or scowering pads or scrapers.
|
|
|
|
Post by Xantia on Jan 18, 2015 0:06:09 GMT
Hi All
What's all this stuff about strength to weight ratios in chain? In the roaring forties where we live, the more weight in the chain the better. After all, the reason for using chain isn't just for strength, it's to keep the pull on the anchor along the bottom, not lifting it out. So if you don't need to worry about winds over fifty knots in anchorages, which we get several times a year, and you want to save weight, just use less chain of a heavier variety and more rope. Our SO42 DS has 70 metres of 10 mm chain and we've used it all, but we've never used the 25 m of rope spliced on to it. My main concern is with the quality of the galvanising.
Cheers
Ian
|
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Jan 18, 2015 4:35:23 GMT
Xantia/Ian,
Glad the roaring 40's in the south are roaring! Here in North America at the US, Canada border, in the salish sea, if we get winds into the 20's it is a hayday sailing. Much less a gale as forecast for tomorrow sunday, might be monday in your time zone......that is another issue. Usually it is blowing maybe 5-15 knots.....or less!
For many around here, they like all chain as they "might" be able to anchor with 4 or 5-1 in 100-200'/30-80M of water. It does happen. One can even put the bow on the cliff with 3-500' above you, and still be in 100-200' of water!
Anchoring can be an art per say, depending upon the where you need to anchor. In some area's local, we put out a 3 or 4-1 anchor on the bow, stern tie to a LARGE rock or tree on the shore 30'/10M away! still in 100+' of water!
With 12-15' tides, one can be in 50' at noon, and 35 at 8pm, or vice versa! what you thought was 7-1, is now 5 or even 4-1!
I believe in the no right or wrong, only what works for you. If you race as I do, the minimum anchor is LOA/17 cubed. For a 34' boat, 34/17=2x2x2=8 lbs of anchor. for total road and anchor, 34 sq/80 = a whopping max total of 14.5lbs! good to about 20 knots of wind! oh, and a min 150' of road in sufficient strength to hold the boat. NOT what most boat cruisers would consider an ample setup.
I have my race setup, so I keep the wt on the bow to a minimum as noted, and a cruise setup that is probably 3x the wt of anchor, and a boat length of chain, and 250' of road!
No right or wrong frankly.
Marty
|
|
|
|
Post by Xantia on Jan 18, 2015 5:17:08 GMT
Good Comment Marty,
It's been blowing 20 knots average here all day, and this is summer. Last night the government weather station a mile away from here recorded gusts of 50 knots for an hour and a half. The advantage is that there is nothing left to blow away, it's all gone to New Zealand already. On the other hand we can usually get down to less than 6 metres or 20 feet to anchor, and the mud bottoms are like epoxy. So you're right, everyone's situation is different. We rarely can motor up to the anchor, and have to pull up all the way on the winch because the boat sails up into the wind and falls off violently, jamming the chain off the rollers. Another use for the bow thruster. Normally we have 30 to 70 metres of chain out but the winch doesn't complain unless the engine isn't running to keep the volts up. The wear problem we have on the winch is on the chain locker side.
Looks like both of us are waiting for summer, but ours should start properly in a couple of weeks.
Cheers
Ian
|
|
