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Post by On y va on Jan 2, 2015 11:01:31 GMT
For my voyage I am considering a watermaker, as what I read about on websites from cruisers who don't have one, that it is quite cumbersome to get water by jerrycan and on or a dinghy in remoter places.
I am considering the Katadyn Powersurvivor E40, which does approx 5,5 litres per hour BUT only uses 4 Amps at 12V, so can run off a solar panel. Also, running it every day for say 2 or 3 hours means no flushing/preserving needed and 10 to 15 litres per day is plenty really.
Who has a watermaker and what are their experiences and why did they choose this particular brand/model?
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Post by hoppy on Jan 2, 2015 14:35:11 GMT
I don't have one yet, but my current preferred option is the Spectra 200T MPC www.spectrawatermakers.com/products/marine/ventura-150-200t/I figure that if I am going to spend so much money on a watermaker, I might as well get one that can produce enough water quickly (31 l/hr at 10ah) so that I don't need to be conservative with water usage. With the "automatic store" button on the MPC controller, it means I can leave the boat for extended periods and it will automatically flush the system every 5 days.
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Post by Tafika II on Jan 2, 2015 15:42:20 GMT
We have a Spectra CATALINA 300 MPC-5000 MkII and good not be happier. LOW maintenance with the auto flush. Had only one problem with the salinity probe which was replaced at no charge under warranty with excellent support from Spectra. We went with 12VDC so we didn't have to run there generator or the engine & inverter. At dockside, we have a chlorine filter when filling the tanks from land base supply as chlorine is not friendly with the membrane. We installed the pump in the port aft settee, the filters and gauge in the port mid settee and membrane water maker in the center bilge.
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Post by rxc on Jan 3, 2015 14:28:40 GMT
I have had a Spectra Ventura for 7 years, and it has worked quite well. Good output for the power provided (~1.2 Ahr/l), and very useful in places where fresh water is not available. Some advice, though. I think I would opt for the auto-flush capability in the future. I have the manual flush and have been able to deal with it, but making everything automated would make life a lot simpler. Also, when you don't run the autoflush, you have to pickle the membrane, which is a pain, or if you want to leave it for really long periods, such as over the winter, it is advised that you store the membrane in a propolyne glycol solution, which is not easy to find, or inexpensive, outside the US.
I purchased this unit because it had a good production rate for the electricity it consumed, it is small and modular so I could install the parts in various places where they fit best, and because Spectra seems to have a good reputation. I also like the idea of depending on a low-pressure pump instead of a high-pressure one.
I have one current problem, which I think is my own fault. During our last trip to Scotland we ran the watermaker in the English Channel, off of the Thames, and I think that I ingested some very fine particulate that may have lodged in one of the valves and reduced the water production rate. I think I will need to disassemble the unit to clean it. Spectra was very helpful in providing instructions for cleaning these valves, and I just need to take the time to dismount it and take it apart. A non-trivial exercise.
If you plan to go anywhere that does not have good, free/inexpensive/easily available water, I would highly recommend a water maker. Some people do the calculation of how many liters/day they use, and conclude that it is cheaper to just buy water, even where it is expensive, but water is one thing you really don't want to run out of. It is more important than diesel, food, or sails. And when you have to scrimp to make do with short supplies, or when you have to jerry-jug it in your dinghy from a tap on shore, or scan the sky looking for a nice rain shower, the cruising life will become much less civilized and more stessful.
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Post by sailbleu on Jan 4, 2015 8:19:11 GMT
I have an Echo Tec 40 liters/hour , 12 volt , very simple , no fancy electronics .Increasing the pressure slightly gives me 50 liters output per hour. Love it. I usually run it while motoring. One advise though , don't think small , look for a decent secondhand if a new one is out of budget. The Katadyn Powersurvivor E40 might be handy in a dinghy or liferaft in emergencies , but that also implies you need to carry it in a grabbag for those emergencies. And since you intend to use it on a daily basis it will never be in the grabbag when you need it.
As for jerrycans , you see that very frequent , boaters in dinghies making one ride after another to a marina or watertap and get the tank filled. I sometimes also do these water-runs , but I use a spare flexible watertank ( 150 liter) . Fill it up, get back to the boat and use a waterhose and a spare 12 volt waterpump to pump the water into the tank(s).Saves me the trouble of making water myself. By the way I only run my watermaker 2 hours at a time , the 12 volt drivemotor heats up quite a bit. This to avoid a meltdown of some sort inside the motor.
Regards
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Post by vasko on Jan 4, 2015 11:29:24 GMT
The 40E is not enough , I have 80E and I still think I need 160E ...
Katadyn is great quality kit and easy to install and maintain - go for the swiss quality ...
the other suggestions are - install a UV filter too (the ones for fish tanks with low power invertor will do a great job) after it install a inline Whele\Jabsco water filer and finally definitely get flow meter - you want to know how much water you have produced ! all this will total <£ 100 and ensure 100% safety and usability
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Post by On y va on Jan 4, 2015 13:19:03 GMT
One advise though , don't think small , look for a decent secondhand if a new one is out of budget. The Katadyn Powersurvivor E40 might be handy in a dinghy or liferaft in emergencies , but that also implies you need to carry it in a grabbag for those emergencies. And since you intend to use it on a daily basis it will never be in the grabbag when you need it. I don´t think you have the correct unit in mind sailblue. The Katadyn Powersurvivor 40E is in principle a fixed unit, just like any other watermaker. Just small and you can, if need be, make it manual. But certainly not something for in a grab bag. lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/landfallnav/Survivor40.pdfThe one thing that is a plus to others, is the flushing possibility. That I must admit is worth more to me, than the capacity.
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Post by sailbleu on Jan 4, 2015 16:28:55 GMT
On y va ,
ok , I must of misunderstood , just googled for the unit and read that it can be operated manually. Therefor I thought you also had a liferaft watermaker in mind.
My EchoTec is all manual , I've installed a 3way valve so I can choose seawater suction or straight from one of my watertanks ( through a cloride carbon filter ) for flushing. I only add biocide for wintering on the hard and I take my membrane in the holder home to prevent it from freezing up. I never use biocide during the summer season .
Regards
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Post by On y va on Jan 4, 2015 16:40:14 GMT
Yes, very sensible sailblue to have this valve, as this makes flushing ver simple. I installed this on another yacht too, who didn't want to spend the money on an auto-flush. How you describe your system, is exactly what I have in mind.
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Post by Len on Jan 6, 2015 5:07:57 GMT
I bought a used Spectra Cape Horn for my previous boat but had not installed it. Now I plan to install it on our new to us 43 DS. If our survey goes well we will be the new caretakers/owners soon. I bought the Spectra because it has a decent output to amps in. And it has a great reputation as a solid reliable unit. Also have a Windpilot Pacif Plus wind vane that never made it on to the old boat. Not sure how it will mount on the swim platform but will check it out once we close on the 43 and get it moved north. Our plans are to sail from the San Juan's to Mexico sometime in the next two years. After that who knows! One step at a time.
Len
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Post by chuckr on Jan 7, 2015 15:31:29 GMT
The 40E is not enough , I have 80E and I still think I need 160E ... Katadyn is great quality kit and easy to install and maintain - go for the swiss quality ... the other suggestions are - install a UV filter too (the ones for fish tanks with low power invertor will do a great job) after it install a inline Whele\Jabsco water filer and finally definitely get flow meter - you want to know how much water you have produced ! all this will total <£ 100 and ensure 100% safety and usability we agree with vasko. the 40e is to small and like him we installed the 80e and it works well but would prefer the 160. now the question maybe why do you want one. when we sailed the caribbean we ran ours about 1-2 hours a day or so as it uses 12v and wecould run it off our solar panels. there are a number of places where just simply can not get water or good water. in the med we have yet to turn it on. so the question is where are you going where you will need one.
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Post by ianpowolny on Jan 7, 2015 16:54:33 GMT
For my voyage I am considering a watermaker, as what I read about on websites from cruisers who don't have one, that it is quite cumbersome to get water by jerrycan and on or a dinghy in remoter places. I am considering the Katadyn Powersurvivor E40, which does approx 5,5 litres per hour BUT only uses 4 Amps at 12V, so can run off a solar panel. Also, running it every day for say 2 or 3 hours means no flushing/preserving needed and 10 to 15 litres per day is plenty really. Who has a watermaker and what are their experiences and why did they choose this particular brand/model? is this any help: www.sailfishmarine.co.uk/epages/es139653.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es139653/Categories/Used_watermakers_for_sale
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Post by vasko on Jan 7, 2015 18:59:08 GMT
Just to answer directly to the questions : Why We choosed Katadyn : - after extensive research it looks like the most hassle-free unit - we choose a new one because of the good deal that we got on the last day of London Boat Show -initially I was thiking to get a cheap second hand engine driven one , but dif not found space in our engine compartment for it and did not like the huge noise that the engine driven one makes - we decided to go with 80e because our usual daily water usage - 100l - we installed the UV filter be ause after a research it qturned out that some of the viruses can pass , and the UV filer is turned cheap - about £40 all included - we choose Katadyn after looking on all competitors on the expo and all was bulky and space consuming - we installed the carbon filter before the kitchen sink because after the UV filer all dead stuff in the water is visible and not nice looking to drink - we instaled the electronic flow meter as we were always not sure did we have enough water made runining it - no issues at all seamless and strait forward instaling it - easy and strait forward you can use the engine cooling intake or if you have another centraly position intake for kitchen salt water if we do it again what we will do differently: plan for all additional extras in advance
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Post by On y va on Jan 8, 2015 9:35:23 GMT
I agree with you vasco, not really interested in a second hand unit. I have also looked extensively at various units, besides having hands on experiences with watermaker in my work. And from my work experiences, most watermaker units are ok nowadays, as long as you maintain them correctly. But that´s with most things. Spare parts is sometimes another issue. But, I just don´t have the same water usuage as other people here. As besides the 320 litre in the boat, one usually doesn´t use much more than 5 to 6 litres a day per person. I have no idea where you get this 100 litres from per day from. American style showering every day perhaps? . I like simplicity and low dependency. The cruising life. But that´s everyone´s personal choice. So for me, the Powersurvivor E40 is perfect. And for 400 euro the external automatic flushing kit and Bob´s your uncle!
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Post by vasko on Jan 8, 2015 10:27:17 GMT
Lucky you We are in the med , and one proper shower + at least two salt cleaning short showers on the bathing platform after jump for swim per person per day is what we do + all others drinking and cooking needs x 4 person on board , my water needs go to 100 to 140 a day easily , keeping in mind that from the 4 persons 2 are girls
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Post by On y va on Jan 8, 2015 12:51:30 GMT
I am in the Med too Vasko.... Mallorca/Valencia. 4 people or 1 or 2 makes a huge difference, especially if there are women/girls involved I know all about that. Anyway, as I said. My objective is simplicity and low power usage. If you ever stop at Mallorca or in Valencia, let me know. We´ll do a couple of beers!
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Post by vasko on Jan 8, 2015 16:39:35 GMT
I'm in Alicante currently but will move my boat to France in May e.g I expect to be in Valencia around 5th of May ... any suggestion for cheap and with good services marinas and good places to anchor along the Spanish cost from Denia- Valencia - Barcelona will be greatly appreciated
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Post by electricmonk on Jan 13, 2015 20:23:57 GMT
we have a 60Ltr/hr echotec 240v ac unit powered by a 4kva genny, we use around 150 litres a day ,(its a girl thing) so running the genny for a few hours every couple of days recharges the batteries, heats the water, makes the water, the tea, the toast and any other 240v thingy hair dryer? and the dive compressor. no stress on the 12v system or main engine. Just run it until water comes out of the tank vent, once a week I run some fresh through the membranes and back flush the filters. membrane gets pickled every winter. spare parts (so far haven't needed any) are easy to come by - no special parts, no electronics just switches and wires, and hoses. Echo Tec kit is seriously strong, The main motor is substantial should outlast the universe.
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Post by rxc on Jan 14, 2015 15:40:54 GMT
Amun,
I just noticed your comment that your generator can run your 4Kv dive compressor. Could I ask what brand/model dive compressor you have? I have a 6 Kv Northernlights, and I can't find a compressor that anyone can agree will work with it.
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Post by electricmonk on Jan 15, 2015 14:02:43 GMT
Amun, I just noticed your comment that your generator can run your 4Kv dive compressor. Could I ask what brand/model dive compressor you have? I have a 6 Kv Northernlights, and I can't find a compressor that anyone can agree will work with it. it depends on what sort of diving you do, all I do is check the hull and attack the prop with a scraper. For this I made a hookah system with a 1.5KVa oil less compressor it gives 65psi constant at the regulator I have never run out of air. I 'll have to work out how deep I could go with that or keep going down till I run out of air maybe. . . . . I guess around 10 mtrs but that's is a guess. . . . but charging dive cylinders is another thing, connect the engine directly to the compressor is the only way I have seen it done at sea; and its a big engine.
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Post by rxc on Jan 15, 2015 15:50:21 GMT
Ahhh. a hookah unit. That makes sense. I have looked at Bauer and Coltri, and the Coltri people say that my genset should work, but Northernlights says that it will stall on startup. I would think that if I start the compressor unloaded, and gradually shut the valves it should work fine, but there may be something about the way that a multistage compressor loads that I don't understand.
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Post by Zanshin on Jan 20, 2015 18:14:30 GMT
rxc - the Bauer Junior II can be driven by a 5Kw genset, but it needs to have something like the Fischer-Panda "soft-start" system or a Victron Quattro type system which will augment the genset power by temporarily inverting from the batteries. The problem is the startup power needed, once it is compressing away it only needs a fraction of what a 6Kw compressor can output.
I have the Bauer aboard now but have a bigger genset, but once the compressor is up and running I've even run it off my inverter.
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Post by rxc on Jan 20, 2015 21:34:46 GMT
Zanshin, That is what the Northern Lights people say - the starting load is too high, even though the running load is fine. What I don't understand is whether they are assuming that the compressor starts "loaded" or "unloaded". I used to be in the power plant business, and when you start large centrifugal pumps, it is important to start them with the discharge valve shut, to lower the load on the electrical system. Positive displacement pumps, OTOH, are started with the discharge valves completely open, to avoid stalling the motor and to reduce the load. It could be that the compressors cannot be unloaded to start them - maybe the first few stages are always loaded. I can't get anyone to explain it to me other than that the load is too high. I know that - I am trying to figure out why the load is too high. I can't imagine that the motor itself, unloaded, is so large that its starting current is too high for the genset. They are only 2 kw units, I believe. We used to have a rule of thumb that starting currents were 5-7 times the running current, so I guess they are using this rule to say that I need a 10-12 kw generator. Seems a bit high. I don't plan to replace the genset to be able to run the compressor - it will be hard enough to convince the wife that the compressor is "necessary".
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Post by abgreenbank on Jan 20, 2015 22:35:32 GMT
My watermaker is a home built 1.5hp Baldor electric motor, cat 234 pump 2x21 inch pressure vessels and pre filters and pump as recommended by Rich at cruiseRo. Pump output is around 600l/hr and product is 70l/hr, the cat pump has enough output for 2x40 inch vessels which would provide around 130l/hr in warmer water. i have no automation but it's easy to start, run, flush and pickle!
I can start and run the system from my 2.5kw inverter, honda 2000i or 6kva onan gen, the Baldor electric motor is 3 phase and is driven by an Invertek VFD, this enables me to control the motor speed as the boat is 50hz and the nema faced Baldor motor is 60hz. The main advantage of 3 phase is easy starts, might be a solution for these dive compressors as lots of choice in VFD's and 3 phase motors are cheaper and simpler.
rgrds ab
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Post by Zanshin on Jan 24, 2015 7:57:28 GMT
I've got a 60l/hr Spectra unit which works well and, above all, efficiently and silently. I do tend to waste a lot of product by doing short runs; the flush cycle at the end of a run consumes a high percentage of the fresh water produced if you only run the watermaker for an hour.
Regarding dive compressors and generators - while a big set of caps for a "soft start" system along the lines of what Fischer Panda does might work, I prefer the flexibility that the Victron inverter/chargers give me. No only will the level off peak loads by assisting with inverted power, but one can adjust the draw on shore power lines (often shore power supplies are limited to a low amperage and trying to use more trips the breakers). Even though I start up my Bauer Junior with open valves, the two-stage mechanism still results in back pressure on the electric rotors at startup and there's no clutch type assembly available to really reduce that initial surge of power. The real solution might be to go 3-phase, but that's a whole new dimension for boat power supplies.
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