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Post by hoppy on Dec 26, 2014 11:56:25 GMT
There's a 43DS next to me that has a removable forestay which connects to the deck in front of the anchor locker, on the stemhead. I guess it makes it a solent rig.  Since I already had removed the access hole cover I thought I'd take a photo to see what it looks like under the stemhead. In other threads posted here the forestay is connected behind the windlass and looks to be quite a major project all with the aim to spread the load across the deck and to the hull. Given that the stemhead is bolted through the deck and hull, would it be sufficient to just use a SS plate that fits in the V area to spread the load across the stemhead and let it support the stay?   It seem like a much easy way to have a forestay for a hank on storm sail or even a 2nd headsail for the trades |
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Post by On y va on Dec 26, 2014 16:35:37 GMT
Yes, the place you plan this bracket, is strong enough. That's not the issue.
What you need to ask yourself is, especially as a solo sailor (or with a 2 man crew) is heading into or already being in a storm and having to go on the foredeck to a: fit this removable stay and b: hank on and hoist the stormjib.
This subject is often discussed on various sailing forums. And there are many that think fitting a removable forestay and stormjib in bad weather, is not such in issue. I think these people have never experienced bad weather for real.
Basically it is impractible and simply dangerous.
So if one considers long distance sailing in combination with sailing solo (like I do) in my opinion the only option is to have a fixed cutterstay with furling staysail, as this is the only and safest way of sail handling in bad weather, without having to leave the relative safety of the cockpit.
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Post by hoppy on Dec 27, 2014 9:19:53 GMT
Not specifically thinking about it right now. I just noticed the setup on my neighbours boat and thought about the Sailbleu's effort to mount it behind the anchor locker. After looking at the thread it is clear that doing the same on a SO40 will be much more complex with the windlass surrounded by fiberglass rather than removable wood.
Good point on going forward. I have watched videos for setting up a "Gale Sail" and "Storm bag" and was thinking the gale sail seemed a bit too much to do in a storm trying to clip the sail on around the roller. It now occurs to me that with the removable forestay it would require 2 trips to the foredeck.
I really don't see Jessabbé ever becoming a full on cutter rig with a roller.
It did get me thinking, could they not mount a storm sail the same way a Code 0 is mounted on a dynema line and roller. I think that with a bit of clever design you could make a roller like a traditional genoa roller work like that. Perhaps to make sure you get good tension you could have a halyard with a block to get 2:1.
Then if the weather is looking a bit risky, you can mount the storm sail roller and have an instant cutter/solent rig. If you have the solent rig mounted (rolled up)and want to tack the genoa you could probably let off the halyard and tighten the storm sail sheets to pull it out of the way.
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Post by On y va on Dec 27, 2014 16:02:51 GMT
hoppy said "I really don't see Jessabbé ever becoming a full on cutter rig with a roller.".
This is very true. It is a major change, which took me quite a while to consider. A SO40 is not really a boat for this sort of setup.
It is not only the cutter stay, plus the deck fitting, plus all that is under deck, but I now also have running back stays, including more deck brackets. So yes, it is quite some change and in the end, also quite some expense.
However, as I am looking at extended cruising, I also looked at the pro aspects. Safety and flexibility being the main ones, but also, I have now 3 triangles supporting the mast. The famous "pumping" of the floppy Z-spar mast is history and the cutterstay makes that I can now pull the mast in a perfect curve, optimising my main sail performance.
If however I would not have long distance sailing in mind, I would never ever do this. I wouldn´t even consider a removable forestay.
For my objectives however, I think I have done the right thing.
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Post by ianpowolny on Dec 27, 2014 16:11:30 GMT
On Affinity we have exactly what is shown in photo 1. Jeanneau supplied a U beam that is fixed under the steam head and I added two U bolts. See my earlier thread in this. Very easy to fix.
Coming out of Protland earlier this year in a F6 I went forward to deploy the blade jib. This was already hanked on but my wife couldn't hoist the sail in this weather. A male friend need to hoist as my wife moved the boat across the wind. I think I was making about 3m vertical movement and spent a number of seconds immersed in water a number of times. Even with the sailed laid out on deck in a deck bag - specially made for the job - I think it will be difficult for us to deploy the sail in F6 and above if we are two up.
We plan to try it all again in 2015 in less wind so we get used to the system and will also use soft shackles which have more lubricity than Sweden hanks.
We'd like to add a second furling system behind the Genoa furler but there isn't room I don't think. Jeanneau have told me I can do this.
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Post by sailbleu on Dec 27, 2014 16:24:10 GMT
There's a 43DS next to me that has a removable forestay which connects to the deck in front of the anchor locker, on the stemhead. I guess it makes it a solent rig. Since I already had removed the access hole cover I thought I'd take a photo to see what it looks like under the stemhead. In other threads posted here the forestay is connected behind the windlass and looks to be quite a major project all with the aim to spread the load across the deck and to the hull. Given that the stemhead is bolted through the deck and hull, would it be sufficient to just use a SS plate that fits in the V area to spread the load across the stemhead and let it support the stay? It seem like a much easy way to have a forestay for a hank on storm sail or even a 2nd headsail for the trades In other threads posted here the forestay is connected behind the windlass and looks to be quite a major project all with the aim to spread the load across the deck and to the hull. Given that the stemhead is bolted through the deck and hull, would it be sufficient to just use a SS plate that fits in the V area to spread the load across the stemhead and let it support the stay?
Read more: jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/3525/removable-forestay-mounted-forward-anchor?page=1#ixzz3N7GccB00------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It would . Regards |
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Post by ianpowolny on Dec 27, 2014 16:41:17 GMT
Jeanneau have a specific design for the under deck spreader for the 45DS. I'd suggest if you want to make this modification on another model you should at least speak to Jeanneau who can then involve the designers.
service.client@jeanneau.fr
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Post by sailbleu on Dec 28, 2014 5:40:02 GMT
Jeanneau have a specific design for the under deck spreader for the 45DS. I'd suggest if you want to make this modification on another model you should at least speak to Jeanneau who can then involve the designers. service.client@jeanneau.fr Strange you didn't mention this : jeanneau.proboards.com/attachment/download/378It was after all part of your posting on may 2 last year 2013 here : jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/2551/inner-forestay-43dsMost of the deck to hull fixes in our range of boats are made the same way , so jeanneau's suggestion towards you , would also be applicable to Hoppy since it's the same setup. But I guess it never harms asking Jeanneau for advise. Provided they're interested in giving it that is. Regards |
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Post by abgreenbank on Dec 28, 2014 9:55:29 GMT
Hi I have the releasable forestay option fitted to my 2014 50DS. The factory installed only one Whichard waterproof unbolt and that was in the wrong position , so the Whichard screw tensioner would not fit. Eventually got 2 ubolts fitted in the correct place, one for the stay and one for the sail, but it now appears that the plate in the anchor locker has not been fitted, thanks Ian for the picture from jeanneau in the associated thread, I now see how it is supposed to work.
the problem I still have is the stowage of the forestay, even with the whichard screw adjuster removed for stowage there is a considerable mass that is difficult to tension with the supplied pulleys, it has already released itself and taken a chunk of gel coat when failing around the deck, I think Ian has used dyneema for the stay, probably an excellent solution.
It's very busy in that foredeck area and I an still struggling to get a tack line to work for the assy spinnaker without cutting itself as it passes below the genoa furler.
i got the releasable forestay option so I could use a storm jib, but as already mentioned, hanking on a storm jib in bad weather short handed isn't a sensible option, I see a Furler of some description on my shopping list, but how releasable are they?
Ab
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Post by On y va on Dec 28, 2014 14:15:33 GMT
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Post by so32foot on Dec 28, 2014 15:25:12 GMT
Jeanneau made a similar construction on my SO 32 by placing an U beam under the steamhead. But it wasn't strong enough, so the importer tried to improve without succes.
In order to make (heck) anchoring in Sweden more easy I installed a bowsprit. I used the fixation of the bobstay to strenghten the fixation of the removable forestay by installing a simple rigging screw. Now it strong enough.
In practice I use it only when I can install the removable forestay in the harbour in case there is much wind and I foresee to make a longer trip sharp on the wind. In such situation I should roll in the genua too much and the profile is lost.
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Post by ianpowolny on Dec 28, 2014 15:30:42 GMT
Very impressed with the system. Did you design it yourself? |
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Post by On y va on Dec 28, 2014 15:54:09 GMT
Very impressed with the system. Did you design it yourself? Yes I did. But I have access to several yachting service companies with the knowledge to ask or verify things. So that does help. |
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Post by hoppy on Dec 28, 2014 16:07:17 GMT
Interesting way you have supported the cutter stay. I could not see myself ever going for the roller option. I get annoyed enough when the dinghy gets in the way and slows my tacking, so always having to tack around the cutter stay would drive me crazy(er) . I might seriously look at talking to sail makers about putting a storm sail on a gennaker roller would work. I was going to say I would then I will look to see how I could mount a normal roller drum on top of gennaker roller but then I found this from Facnor www.facnor.com/uk/products/gennaker__code_0_furlers/standard/default.aspThis roller should allow you to have a storm sail mounted and ready to be deployed, but held securely rolled up. It should also allow it to be easily removed or eased off and the sail pulled towards the mast to get it out of the way.  Maybe the tension required on the halyard might kill the idea, but then again, a code 0 requires a lot of tension. |
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Post by hoppy on Dec 28, 2014 16:19:35 GMT
If sailmakers say my code 0 roller idea will work, then perhaps I will look at your solution for mounting then I could leave it up and ready on long passages when as the headstem mounting would only be usable if I see i will need the sail soon. How are you running the sheets? Through the same block on the genoa track and you've doubled up the locking blocks by the winch? |
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Post by On y va on Dec 28, 2014 17:15:03 GMT
Obviously I look at a removable furler too. But as u already said, you cannot get enough tension and in weather where you sail either a stormjib or my inflated stormjib, tension is the one thing you need.
I had this verified by three different rigging specialists.
Tacking is not really an issue anymore, now I have the staysail fitted. The genua slides pretty well passed it. When it was just the cutterstay, it was actually more of an issue.
What I next want to tackle, is the passat way of sailing with both genua and staysail boomed out either side. I can boom out the genua with the spinaker pole, but need to find a way to do the same with the staysail. Haven't worked that one out yet.
As I mentioned earlier, I am really pleased with this setup now. Also the fact the mast has a whole new supporting triangle I find a BIG plus (besides the beautiful curve I now have in the mast).
Anyway, each to their own and to their specific requirements and wishes.
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Post by sailbleu on Dec 29, 2014 6:23:10 GMT
On y va , please don't get me wrong ,I mean no insult or offence , I admire what you've done there and I wish you post more of that stuff on the board (Hints & Tips ?!) , but you've lost me on the tie-down of the forestay. I have done the same project , maybe you noticed in the H&T , but my main goal was to avoid a tie-down running through the cabin by all means. I think I succeeded fairly well , and seeing your pics pleases me of making my decesion at the time. Never the less , please fill Malcolm's mailbox with essays of your projects as I for one love reading about other people' skills and ingenuity , never too old to learn. Well done Regards |
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Post by hoppy on Dec 29, 2014 8:04:38 GMT
On y va , please don't get me wrong ,I mean no insult or offence , I admire what you've done there and I wish you post more of that stuff on the board (Hints & Tips ?!) , but you've lost me on the tie-down of the forestay. I have done the same project , maybe you noticed in the H&T , but my main goal was to avoid a tie-down running through the cabin by all means. I think I succeeded fairly well , and seeing your pics pleases me of making my decesion at the time. Never the less , please fill Malcolm's mailbox with essays of your projects as I for one love reading about other people' skills and ingenuity , never too old to learn. Well done Regards There is as it seems a big difference between the SO40 & the 40DS in regards to the containment of the windlass. You have a wooden panel that can be removed giving full access to the windlass and the ability to install the support beam in a single piece  whereas on the SO40 the windlass and the access to where the cutter stay is to be connected if enclosed in fibreglass with access from below. Maybe it is possible to fit a support beam in there, but it would have to come in two pieces and would be a bit on the challenging side to fit  You had it easy  |
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Post by chuckr on Dec 29, 2014 9:39:21 GMT
we have exactly the same set up. in crossing the atlantic we spent 3 days in 25 to 35k winds 50-60 deg on the boat and between our main and jib we balanced the boat out nicely to maintain enough speed to keep from falling off yet not to much speed that the boat was taking a lot of hard banging. we do know jeanneau has a kit for an inner forestay and looked at it but in the end decided to forego it.
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Post by On y va on Dec 29, 2014 13:17:06 GMT
On y va , please don't get me wrong ,I mean no insult or offence , I admire what you've done there and I wish you post more of that stuff on the board (Hints & Tips ?!) , but you've lost me on the tie-down of the forestay. I have done the same project , maybe you noticed in the H&T , but my main goal was to avoid a tie-down running through the cabin by all means. I think I succeeded fairly well , and seeing your pics pleases me of making my decesion at the time. Never the less , please fill Malcolm's mailbox with essays of your projects as I for one love reading about other people' skills and ingenuity , never too old to learn. Well done Regards It is what hoppy already says. The DS has a different setup to get to the anchor winch area than our SO40's have. But, even if it was the same, I would have still opted for the way I have done it, as it is the most optimal way of spreading the loads. The fact there is a metal wire at the end of my bed, doesn't really bother me. It is very close to the anchor locker bulkhead, so I rarely actually touch it. But this is a choice I have made. I can understand most people won't like something visible. |
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Post by Trevor on Dec 29, 2014 13:35:04 GMT
This is an interesting subject as we have a roller furler on the genoa and in mast furling for the main. My wife and I have not done much real long distance cruising but have been caught in the occasional nasty squall and I couldn't imagine going up front when it would be necessary to deploy a storm-sail. With just two of us on the boat she wouldn't let me and I wouldn't want to.
In our case, is it simply the strength of our sails that would not allow us to simply reef to a pocket handkerchief size sail in very testing conditions? Would the normal cruising sails we have on our boat simply get shredded? I figure we can shorten our sails as much as we like and wonder why this is not a suitable plan for the very experienced cruisers on this forum who have a furler on the headsail?
Sorry if this is a naive question or I have missed the point.
Regards,
Trevor
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Post by On y va on Dec 29, 2014 14:01:45 GMT
This is an interesting subject as we have a roller furler on the genoa and in mast furling for the main. My wife and I have not done much real long distance cruising but have been caught in the occasional nasty squall and I couldn't imagine going up front when it would be necessary to deploy a storm-sail. With just two of us on the boat she wouldn't let me and I wouldn't want to. In our case, is it simply the strength of our sails that would not allow us to simply reef to a pocket handkerchief size sail in very testing conditions? Would the normal cruising sails we have on our boat simply get shredded? I figure we can shorten our sails as much as we like and wonder why this is not a suitable plan for the very experienced cruisers on this forum who have a furler on the headsail? Sorry if this is a naive question or I have missed the point. Regards, Trevor It's a fair enough assumption Trevor. But, have u ever sailed in a force 8 with your genua furled in to like storm sail size? You cannot get the correct sheet angle anymore and the leech starts flapping and fluttering, causing massive vibrations in the mast and rig too. If this continues for like 24 hours or more, you will probably damage something. A staysail however, you can trim very neatly and in my case, I can still furl it to storm job size and still have a good sail shape and sheet control. But, most people don't want a setup like I made. It's a choice, mainly based on my single handed sailing (or with 2 people) and long distance sailing plans. |
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Post by hoppy on Dec 29, 2014 14:22:39 GMT
This is an interesting subject as we have a roller furler on the genoa and in mast furling for the main. My wife and I have not done much real long distance cruising but have been caught in the occasional nasty squall and I couldn't imagine going up front when it would be necessary to deploy a storm-sail. With just two of us on the boat she wouldn't let me and I wouldn't want to. In our case, is it simply the strength of our sails that would not allow us to simply reef to a pocket handkerchief size sail in very testing conditions? Would the normal cruising sails we have on our boat simply get shredded? I figure we can shorten our sails as much as we like and wonder why this is not a suitable plan for the very experienced cruisers on this forum who have a furler on the headsail? Sorry if this is a naive question or I have missed the point. Regards, Trevor I don't know if anyone here doesn't have a roller headsail ;-) A couple of years ago I moved my boat from Eastern Greece to the West and for the first week we had heavy winds every day 25+. Halt the time it was 30+ and we saw 40+ hours at a time on occasion. The sails were brand new and never we had a problem with them. At the higher wind speeds we were sailing with a 3rd reef in the main and sized the roller accordingly. When the sail was heavily rolled inI did find that we were struggling to point much higher than 90 degrees apparent. Luckily the wind was a northerly and we were heading west. The biggest issue we had was on the 2nd day we fell a couple of miles to the lee of our destination Mykonos and had to motorsail into a nasty chop the last be it. My thing about wanting a storm sail is related to getting better pointing ability in those conditions since 90 was pretty poor. Admittedly on day 1 in lighter winds we broke the mainsail track and had to fix the main to the centre of the track which would have affected the pointing ability.  I know of an Aussie who circumnavigated a Bene 393 without storm sails but there will be a piece of mind factor having them |
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Post by vasko on Dec 29, 2014 14:38:54 GMT
This is an interesting subject as we have a roller furler on the genoa and in mast furling for the main. My wife and I have not done much real long distance cruising but have been caught in the occasional nasty squall and I couldn't imagine going up front when it would be necessary to deploy a storm-sail. With just two of us on the boat she wouldn't let me and I wouldn't want to. In our case, is it simply the strength of our sails that would not allow us to simply reef to a pocket handkerchief size sail in very testing conditions? Would the normal cruising sails we have on our boat simply get shredded? I figure we can shorten our sails as much as we like and wonder why this is not a suitable plan for the very experienced cruisers on this forum who have a furler on the headsail? Sorry if this is a naive question or I have missed the point. Regards, Trevor I don't know if anyone here doesn't have a roller headsail ;-) A couple of years ago I moved my boat from Eastern Greece to the West and for the first week we had heavy winds every day 25+. Halt the time it was 30+ and we saw 40+ hours at a time on occasion. The sails were brand new and never we had a problem with them. At the higher wind speeds we were sailing with a 3rd reef in the main and sized the roller accordingly. When the sail was heavily rolled inI did find that we were struggling to point much higher than 90 degrees apparent. Luckily the wind was a northerly and we were heading west. The biggest issue we had was on the 2nd day we fell a couple of miles to the lee of our destination Mykonos and had to motorsail into a nasty chop the last be it. My thing about wanting a storm sail is related to getting better pointing ability in those conditions since 90 was pretty poor. Admittedly on day 1 in lighter winds we broke the mainsail track and had to fix the main to the centre of the track which would have affected the pointing ability. I know of an Aussie who circumnavigated a Bene 393 without storm sails but there will be a piece of mind factor having them This summer I had a similar experience sailing from Syros to Tinos the last hour we got 50+ kts wind.. and although I managed it with furling jib and main to something like 1\2 sq meter I definitely want storm sails , but they are crazy expensive , very difficult to put on and quite big for my taste - e.g at the point when I want them I actually want a small duster hanging on the mast  the closest think that I managed to find so far is a jib from Laser pico sailing dinghy used as trisail.. |
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Post by On y va on Dec 29, 2014 15:47:11 GMT
hoppy said: My thing about wanting a storm sail is related to getting better pointing ability in those conditions since 90 was pretty poor.
Exactly!! You try and point with a heavily furled in genua. It´s impossible. Why do you think they put the two markers on these furling genuas. Beyond the second marker, your headsail is not more than a piece of shapeless cloth.
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the closest think that I managed to find so far is a jib from Laser pico sailing dinghy used as trisail..