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Post by carterj22 on Nov 28, 2014 20:05:08 GMT
Hi, we have just purchased a Jeanneau 39i and we are delighted with her. I came across this great forum when i was searching to find the best battery practice when it comes to charging. When i leave the boat and we are connected to shore power to charge the batteries, should all the batteries be switched off or just the engine battery? Its probably a really basic question but any tips would be really appreciated. I know we when use a Dufour boat in the past we could switch off all batteries and they still charged.
Any tips on charging would be greatly recieved.
Cheers
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Post by Trevor on Nov 28, 2014 20:21:30 GMT
Helo carterj22,
I just leave my battery switches on. I have never switched any battery switches off. When I leave the boat I ensure the battery charger is on, the bilge pump is in automatic, the fridge is on and all other switches are off ( hot water system, navigation equipment, nav lights, anchor light, fresh water pump, steaming light etc).
Before leaving the boat it is plugged into the marina power outlet.
I think the only disadvantage of leaving the battery switches in the on position for years is they can develop a high resistance so rarely, say once a year I vigorously exercise the switches so the internal contacts freshly mate so we don't have much voltage drop across the switch.
I hope this helps,
Regards,
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Post by dbostrom on Nov 28, 2014 20:37:26 GMT
For a holistic perspective on leaving shore power connected, do see the galvanic isolator thread: jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/3461/galvanic-isolatorsJust finalizing purchase of a 39i (congratulations on yours!) myself and am gaining a rapid education on the behind-scenes boat world beyond being a charter credit card captain*. The basic science and application of isolators was something unknown to me only days ago but once you're walked the concept it's clear they're a must, if you're routinely plugged into the grid. Don't forget to casually drop "failsafe galvanic isolator" into your conversations. *Ironically the boat we're obtaining is in a very efficiently operated charter fleet. Now I'm going to see the other side of the coin, truly.   |
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Post by carterj22 on Nov 28, 2014 21:13:05 GMT
Thanks very much Trevor, that is really helpful.
Dbostrom - thanks for the links and the very best of luck on your purchase.
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Post by MalcolmP on Nov 28, 2014 21:58:52 GMT
On our 39i I tend to switch off all the batteries (including the toggle switches for the bow thruster and windlass) and also the breakers on the main panel for the battery charger and immersion heater (on the basis that the batteries should already be charged) but like now if the weather is cold and I have an oil filled radiator and a dehumidifier on just leave the AC outlet breaker on. Maybe not perfect but has served me well for 7 seasons. I don't have a galvanic isolator, but have read the threads, but to date have not had any problems whatsoever - in the summer when I don't need the mains I tend to unplug the shore lead anyway
Enjoy the 39i, great boat
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Post by rene460 on Nov 29, 2014 10:57:32 GMT
Different ships, different splices they used to say. Our marina does not allow shore power to be left switched on, and it does not make sense to leave the cord out in the sun and plugged in but switched off, both due to sun UV damage and connection to other boats via the earth wire which is usually not switched.
The Jeanneau agent advised that all sea cocks should be closed and all switches off when we leave the boat, and I have followed this advice.
We have a solar panel, only 55 W, which is definitely too small, but we have had it for years, and it is connected to the house battery on battery side of the switches and does an excellent job of maintaining the battery fully charged when we are away. The charge controller even includes a simple data logging function that allows me to check max and min voltages and daily amp.hours for the previous 7 days. I log this each time I return to the boat so now I have a good record of the minimum unloaded voltage, which I hope will alert me to any developing problem.
I also have a dual sensing, voltage sensitive relay connecting the house and engine battery whenever the pre-set voltage threshold is exceeded, so when the sun shines, the engine battery also gets a trickle charge.
This system has so far maintained the batteries fully charged whenever I arrive at the boat. Of course it may not be so useful for keeping the boat dry in a freezing winter.
If you rely on the shore power and the battery charger, whether to leave the switches on or off depends on which side of the switches the charger is connected. The wiring diagram is not clear and some old posts on this forum seem to indicate that some boats are connected each way. You would need to measure the terminal voltage at the battery with the switches off, then switch on the battery charger to see if the terminal voltages rise in order to see which way your boat is connected and hence whether to leave switches on or off.
rene460
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Post by ianpowolny on Nov 29, 2014 15:58:54 GMT
We leave the battery isolator in the on position but switch everything off except the 240v circuit which we use to run a dehumidifier and 500w heater. One thing we did this year was remove all the cables behind the isolators, Vasilne on each terminal and make the cables back up. This made a hugh difference to our available power.
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Post by electricmonk on Nov 29, 2014 16:29:55 GMT
The battery charger should be connected to the "battery" side of the isolation switch so when the switch is off the charger is still connected, that has been the case on my SO37 and SO43.
We always leave the shore power and battery charger connected, our batteries last about 8 years and are just standard cheap lead acid cells.
When we leave the boat the only circuits we leave on are the battery charger (240v) and the bilge pump (12v), it never cycles as far as we can tell, the bilge is dry.
We do have a galvanic isolator and our zinc is changed every 5 years the last one was less than 50% depleted, our bow-thruster zincs were "as new".
We have no evidence of electrolysis on the prop, the shaft, the skin fittings or bow thruster.
That said we did loose a shaft about 6 years ago due to crevice corrosion because of dissimilar metals 104 vs 316 stripper.
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Post by rc sail on Nov 29, 2014 17:10:07 GMT
Congrats and happy sailing to the new and prospective 39i owners. I have 39 DS and I have
been most happy with for the last 7 years.
My practice while at dock and with AC plugged in is start battery switch off. House battery
switch remains on. When leaving vessel the shore AC remains plugged and on and All AC and DC
switches/breakers are off excepting battery charger, bilge pump and refrigerator.
I had good run with the "original" Tudor batteries lasting 6+ years. I am in midwest USA
and the batteries were/are removed from the vessel during winter layup and stored at home in
warm location and charged on a monthly basis.
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Post by dbostrom on Nov 29, 2014 18:56:16 GMT
Rene460's little maintenance PV panel seems a great way to do it if heat/dehumidification is not necessary. Solves a lot of problems. Here we'd end up with a mushroom farm by the end of winter without more brutal use of power. One change I'll be making on our boat is to add an actual dehumidifier as opposed to relying on a heater, which pretty much only lets moisture migrate and condense on colder parts of the boat. Practical Sailor tested a solid-state model that will fit and drain nicely in the galley sink and found it very useful. One of those is on the way. |
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Post by vasko on Nov 30, 2014 8:38:21 GMT
it is VERY - repeating VERY dangerous to leave you batteries ON ( charging) for long period of time and depending on the battery type you can sustain different damages:
1. Normal batteries ( AC ID deep cycle ones) - they can lightly explode if overcharged for long time - e.g. acid all over the place and pieces of batteries everywhere - huge cleaning job and new batteries - not really dangerous , but VERY annoying
2. AGM or GEL - same as (1) but less messy and more expensive to change
3. Lithium-ion or Li-Poli - without protection - REALLY dangerous !! when overcharged fire on board and may be holes in the hull !! - the important thing here is that they explode when used e.g. discharged
4. Li-ion or Li-Poli WITH protection - if the protection fails - same as (3) and again as a Li battery with a lot of AH are usually build by about 300 small cells (3.7 v) then the failing rate is increasing as every single cell has its own protection that can fail.
if you want to be SAFE you either do not leave the charging ON when you do not have any consumption on the boat e.g. you are not there for long period OR buy a VERY expensive and smart electronic charger which monitors the batteries all the time - and GUARANTY NO OVERCHARGING
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Post by Trevor on Nov 30, 2014 9:41:47 GMT
i assume that the battery chargers are multistage (bulk, absorption, float) and not a simple linear charger. That applies to the solar regulator if solar panels are used, the external regulator for the alternator if that is used and the mains power battery charger.
These regulators usually have the battery type selectable so the various charge characteristics can be suited to the battery type. The idea of the float stage of the sequence is specifically designed to not overcharge of the battery so the charger can be live on the battery bank indefinately.
Regards,
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Post by electricmonk on Nov 30, 2014 11:01:18 GMT
Yes Trevor, any charger that is fitted by Jeanneau in the factory is a multistage charger with a safe - too safe for some battery types - float charge, its quite safe to leave these connected and on charge they are designed to do just that.
In the case where a battery goes faulty under these chargers the electrolyte boils away - SLOWLY, and when its all gone the battery takes its self out of the bank. This process happens at around 100deg C so its hot but so hot things will burn or explode. In the 50 years I've been round boats and trucks and cars I have never seen a battery explode connected to a multistage charger.
Even if you put a bar across the terminals of a fully charged battery (a silly thing to do) the terminals get hot and melt and the circuit is broken but the battery wont above 100 deg C (ish) the case may distort but it should nt rupture. Its hard to envisage that happening under normal use. More likely is a dead short in the wiring away from the battery and the insulation on the cables will catch fire - which is why we have fuses and isolation switches.
That said I have seen some "modifications" to the standard set up that have made me wish I was somewhere else . . . . . . somewhere safer.
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Post by rene460 on Nov 30, 2014 11:14:33 GMT
In case I created any confusion, my solar charger has the three stages, though my record of the data logger readings shows it does not normally reach the equalisation stage. Max daily voltage is normally 14.2 V, min 12.8 V, and daily charge is normally 3 to 5 amp.hours per day. If you assume about 6 hours of effective sunlight, this means an average of about 1 amp. Higher daily energy input usually only follows a few very low days, presumably cloud cover, or when we are sailing around and using power.
The Cristec charger originally installed takes care of everything when we are on board with shore power and using power for the fridge, radio, instruments etc.
rene460
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Post by vasko on Nov 30, 2014 11:21:03 GMT
Agree that when you have a smart multistage charger that it is SAFE to leave it always ON
as Trevor said the simple way to find out what type of charger you have is if it have the option to select the battery type..
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Post by ianpowolny on Nov 30, 2014 16:22:13 GMT
Trevor and Electicmonk - thanks for the input. With Affinity in Spain and us in Scotland I was concerned about what to do. So now I'll just enjoy the cold.
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Post by vasko on Dec 12, 2014 22:34:46 GMT
just installed a new li-ion battery bank builded myself from 300 x 18650 3.7 protected cells 6000maH with 100holders 3x cells connected together , this gives me exact 320AH from fully charged to fully discharged state e.g equal to 600AH battery acid\agm battery bank and takes about 1/10of the space and 1/10 of the weight .. total cost ~500gbp - if someone is interested I can send the bay links to the materials that I used
the important thing is that it recharges a lot faster and can use all the available recharge amp ... no memory efect no need to be fully charged ever and because the cells are protected no risk of burning or exploding
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Post by sitara on Dec 12, 2014 22:59:44 GMT
Hi Vasko,
Details of what you used and how it was all linked together would be very useful. I still have the two 75 AH batteries supplied by Jeanneau with the boat and am going down the path of increasing energy availability by flexible solar panels on the bimini, or a petrol charger and more battery capacity. No decisions have been made yet but I am leaning to the solar panels.
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Post by singoviv on Dec 13, 2014 3:31:16 GMT
2 x 75amph gives you 75 amph useable power. Not much at all. I have used lithium ion batteries on my Ross 780 and will do the same on my SO 349 when she arrives next month.
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Post by dbostrom on Dec 13, 2014 8:02:24 GMT
Very interested to hear details and experience with lithium-ion batteries and chargers, singoviv. In particular, what's the deal with interfacing the engine alternator with those?
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Post by singoviv on Dec 13, 2014 11:58:59 GMT
My current boat is a trailer sailer (Ross 780) - the outboard only puts in 7 amps per hour.
My SO349 comes with a ctek charger for onshore charging. I currently use a ctek charger so I know it handles the lithium ion batteries.
Once I get the SO349, I'll get the appropriate hardware to ensure the system works. So at the moment I can't comment too much as I don't know what I'll get for sure.
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Post by singoviv on Dec 13, 2014 12:05:35 GMT
Found this - "The new batteries can be charged a much higher rate. They can handle up to 300 amp hours of charging. And, the absorption period for topping off the batteries is correspondingly higher as well. This means the total time for us to re-charge the system is much less resulting in less diesel fuel being used to charge."
"The new bank can operate with our existing charger and charge controllers. However, we will need to buy a new monitoring system since you can’t tell as easily how deep they are discharged based on the voltage. "
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Post by vasko on Dec 13, 2014 12:36:55 GMT
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Post by vasko on Dec 13, 2014 12:47:16 GMT
Solar Panels - great thing - but you need a lot of them and very important is to use MPPT controler in general 200W will give you about 5amp-7amps charge in reality - which will cover your fridge consumption for the day hours.. on my boat I have 250W solar and 400W wind and with the running the engine from time to time when less wind or entering leaving harbor is enough... I have a lot of consumption , watermaker/desalinator with UV filter + bunch of laptops and smart phones, internet , TV/DVD, navigation stuff and VHF etc... as I have said it before if you are not a electronics fan and enjoy working on the boat like me the best strategy is to buy a Hyundai quite generator with remote control ( it is a lot better then honda and yamaha and a lot cheaper), keep it in the dinghy on the davits and do not change anything - will be cheaper solution for the first 10 years  |
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Post by vasko on Dec 13, 2014 12:57:00 GMT
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