2011 45DS 54hp Power Advice

[onlinelee]

Hi all members,
this is my first post after visiting this great site for over a year now and wish to thank any member in advance for help.

i am just about to complete the purchase of my very first boat in the Med, having only ever charted in the past, it's a 2011 45DS with the standard Yanmar 54hp engine and stock 60amp battery charger. My plan is to spend 5 days each week anchored away from the dock so need to have a reasonable solution for charging the house batteries - 3 x 110amph, with minimum engine use, currently 174hours. The boat has no 240v requirements other than a microwave that would only be used when power allowed, and a small inverter for charging phones and laptop. My plan would be to upgrade the house batteries by minimum 220amph, upgrade the alternator to 100amp, and I guess the charger too, because I assume it's not a smart charger, later I want to install 300w of solar. My questions that I hope someone with a similar or same yacht will take the time to answer are as follows:
1: Based on above, what amps am I likely to use in 24 hours at anchor in the summer with fridge and freezer running - a guesstimate from a similar age boat based somewhere warm like the med would be super.
2: Can a 45DS owner let me know if there is room near the current house batteries for another 2 batteries? I plan on using the Stbd aft cabin as a store room so guess somewhere in front of the bunk maybe?
3: Are there any major additional costs involved I should consider upgrading the alternator and battery charger, assuming I opt for parts that don't involve major changes to layout, so I would buy an alternator specifically designed for my engine.
4: To assist in battery charging, when required,  I'm going to have a Honda 20i in the anchor locker ( I am aware of all the pro's and con's of having a petrol generator on board but feel I can make it work for me ) This would only be used at anchor. Am I right in thinking a simple hook up would be to hook up the shore power cable in the normal way but instead of taking it ashore take it to the bow and using an adaptor plug it into the 3 pin 13amp socket? 

Thanks again in in advance for any help, Lee

[electricmonk]

100amp alternator is on the ragged edge for a single vee belt, PLUS it will rarely provide 100amps, the maximum absorption rate of your batteries (when they are flat) is around 20% of the stated capacity (330 AH) - so 65amps maybe for a couple of minutes (the rate tails off as the batteries charge). so the 100amp alternator is a waste of time and money in my humble opinion.

in the height of summer water temperature in Turkey is above 30 degC air temp 45deg C; fridges and freezers run 90% of the time so power consumption in July and August will be in the ball park of 10AH for 24 hrs! ( 240AH will be required) So a solar solution that would replace the overnight load and keep up with the cooling during the day would be a panel that provides 20amps for 12 hours - a 240 watt panel in theory but 300W or more to be sure.

So 300W for 12 hours a day will just about keep up with the fridge and freezer if the sun's out. Increasing the bank will involve providing yet more charge capability so think very carefully before you decide to weigh the boat down with lead ballast.

[onlinelee]

Thank you for you for your advice. I accept that the upgraded alternator may be a waste of money, but so far I have been told a wind turbine and solar are all a waste of money and time, clearly I need to resolve my energy requirements one way or another, 240amps is a lot to replace as a starting point though. I had hoped a 2011 would be better on consumption:-( I see you have a SO too, assuming you spend time on the hook would you mind letting me know how you resolved this? Please don't say you have an installed gen set! Cheers Lee

[electricmonk]

I have a fridge no freezer, and a keel cooler on the fridge, all my lights are LED so my "must have" consumption is around 100amps per day in the worst part of the season. I have 2x40watt solar panels that I lash on the sunny side of the coach roof when at anchor. They enable me to go 2 days between recharging the batteries by "another means". I just keep an eye on battery voltage, all the other stuff is window dressing and probably wrong, just don't the batts go below 12v. But right now, daytime temps are high 20's and the fridge is on less than 50% of the time so consumption is down to less than 50 amps per day. But then the days are shorter and not quite so sunny - there's no way we win!

My other means is an integrated solution.

In two days we get through 100 - 200 litres of water (why not?)

Water maker produces around 70 ltrs per hour so every 2 days we run the 4KVA Pajero diesel genny for about 4 hours, sometimes more sometimes less, 1.5KW for the water maker, 600W for the battery charger, 1.5KW for my hooka compressor so I can check the prop and anodes and see the fish! and it also makes hot water and sparks for the very necessary hair dryer and other sundry assorted stuff that cannot survive without volts.

Obviously if we motor then the genny gets a rest till we run out of water!

My cheapo batteries last about 8 seasons under this regime.

[onlinelee]

All the lights on this 2011 boat are LED, I am informed a lot of the electronics on these newer Jeanneau's are less power hungry, the real problem as always is the fridge & freezer, maybe I can talk the wife out of switching the freezer on! With your set up looks like you are totally self sufficient with the combination of watermaker, solar and generator, the ideal scenario! I'm not looking for total freedom, so hoping the 600+ litres of water the 45ds holds plus bottled water for drinking will last between dock visits 7 - 8 times per month, and being ashore for winter. I think power is my main problem for the summer season, 300w of solar is a given I think regardless of what some have said to me.  I really don't want the expense of a installed gen set, based on what I plan what do you think I would get away with? A Jeanneau dealer and others have suggested the Honda 1600w 20i in the anchor locker. Your thoughts on this common problem are much appreciated, thank you again, Lee

[Zanshin]

I'm on my 3rd Jeanneau liveaboard now and have a lot of practice keeping up with power consumption and replacement. As has been mentioned already, the main power consumer is going to be refrigeration and the bigger the difference between outside and fridge/freezer temperature the larger the power requirements are going to be. The insulation is merely adequate on these boats and getting a smart speed controller for the compressor(s) is going to go a long way in reducing power consumption.

If you have 3 x 110Ah gel batteries then you realistically have only about 130Ah of energy to use. This is because you won't go below a 50% SOC (State Of Charge) and using the alternator while motoring or the Honda won't get you much above 90% SOC. Those 130Ah will get consumed quite quickly, even that LED anchor light and LED inside lights will take some amps and the refrigeration runs all day and night. I'm in tropical waters (28°C) so use more energy for cooling than you will, but my fridge and freezer alone consume about that much power.

A measuring and monitoring system is absolutely necessary for liveaboards, I use a Xantrex LinkPro but the other ones on the market are all good and they will measure the amps going into and out of the system with accuracy and let you know the battery bank's true capacity at any time.

Since the acceptance rate of the batteries changes during charging and becomes quite slow above about 90%, increasing the battery capacity will let your charging devices put out more Amps per unit of time for a longer period of time.

I just started playing with solar aboard "Zanshin", installing 3x125W Solbian panels. I only tested them for about a month, but during this month the sun was shining most of the time and despite having a MPPT controller per panel they only just kept up with my daytime energy consumption (which was only the fridge/freezer and about 50% of the time the inverter was on to power the notebook), getting another 125W or 250W would be sufficient to keep me from using the genset more than once a week - when I want to make a lot of water or run the dive compressor or some other energy-intensive task.

[electricmonk]

we have been living on board for the past 14 years on and off, mostly on and the only thing I use to monitor batteries is a good voltmeter and a diagram like this one

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Lead-acid_voltage_vs_SOC.PNG

all the rest is just window dressing and guess work - nobody knows the capacity of lead acid battery, its a movable feast, dependant among other things on the rate of discharge, temperature, age of the cell, initial state of charge; the £150 pounds for a monitor is better spent on a solar panel or another battery - is my experience. As I have said many times before measuring it wont make it any bigger, voltage is and always has been THE indicator of battery performance, counting amps is a fun thing to do but nobody knows how many amps a battery absorbs under charge compared with how many amps are supplied (that again is a moveable feast), yes we can count how many amps we have supplied and the GUESS how many remain in the battery - but it is a guess, complex algorithms may improve this guess but only for that discreet charging cycle, the algorithm will have to be modified for the next discharge/charging cycle, and the battery will have to be bench tested to determine the new parameters, this is not practical. VOLTAGE on the hand is easy to measure (but do we rest our batteries for 24 hours before we take a reading? does an all singing and dancing monitor rest the battery? NO!) and if it drops quickly or takes a long time to come up then you know the battery is on its way out, with a simple voltmeter you can perform a high discharge test and tell instantly if the battery is any good.

The simple diagram above is all you need to determine a ball park figure for your battery capacity/state of charge, its not perfect because of the reason mentioned above but it's as good as ANY monitor and just a little bit cheaper.

as an aside I crewed on racing boat in my teens, it had all the gear (state of the art in 1970's!) wind speed, log, Decca, it was a fast boat but was beaten every year by a fishing smack that was just a huge sail perched on a bow sprit and stern sprit and an old boy on the tiller smoking a pipe helming and his sons pulling on ropes (no winches), no compass, no instruments, that boat had been in the family since 1820 and they knew how to make it go, taught me a lot about the need for instruments - and sailing.

[ianpowolny]

We were live-a-boards for 5 months this year on our 2008 45DS. Affinity is fitted with the original 4 house batteries, standard altenator,standard battery charger, 30% LED lighting, no solar panels or generator. We spent a 10 day period in St Peter Port and a number of other days at anchor without a 240v connection. We ran the engine for around 2 hours each day to charge the batteries and this seemed to work fine. My wife's solution to more power or quieter power would be to install a generator and add a couple of solar panels. We will add a keel cooled freezer this winter and when we get to Gib (June 2015) we'll probably add an arch to take solar panels and the dinghy. We haven't yet seen any reason to change the standard battery charging system. We do have the 75HP Yanmar but I'm not sure this makes a difference. Your 45DS is designed to take a 4th house battery and I'd add that. The standard battery only so no major carpentry. Have you considered the Hyundai 2.2kW electric start generator? It's £400 cheaper than the the Honda. Your boat like ours has a large space between the lazarttes which is used to fit a permanent diesel generator - have you consider using to space?

Can you let me know how you're going to fit the gene in the anchor locker? In the sailing we've done I'd be concerned that the gene is going to be covered in sea water when sailing to windward.

Good luck with you're project and see you in Med once we turn the corner.

[onlinelee]

Thank you both for your input. It's clear this common problem has no single solution preferred by all - some really don't want a generator. I think as my boat normally has 4 house batteries I have space to increase the 3 110amp gel it has, maybe by 220amp - there is only two of us on board so I think the extra lead won't be an issue. Whats spooky is I have been following Sanshin's solar project and have already looked at those thin flexi panels and for sure that's what I want! So I'm kind of thinking not to bother with upgrading the alternator, add to the battery bank, try out the Honda 20i to see how that helps with charging and then add solar. 

[ianpowolny]

Sounds like a plan . Slow and steady wins the race. No expensive changes until they're really needed.

[onlinelee]

Hi Ian,
super, really pleased to hear from another 45DS owner! Based on your comments and others in this thread it makes sense for me to use the boat in the spring ( it's in Mallorca ) and see how I get on. It was suggested by a Jeanneau agent that the Honda would fit in the anchor locker - I would remove it when not in use and store elsewhere topside. I appreciate your advice about the other portable and will check that out, you are quite right why not place it where the Onan would normally go, I assume your suggestion would fit too? Am I right in thinking you just then use the shore cable ( or shorter version ) with adaptor and plug it straight into the AC input? I really prefer not to have an arch, check out Sanshin's post with his solution, fixed on the foredeck or Velcro on the Bimini, really like that! Where are you now? Cheers Lee

[ianpowolny]

Lee,

We want to add an arch to make handling the dinghy more easily when at anchor and moving on a day-to-day basis. This season we found inflating and deflating each time was a pain even with a small electric compressor - we hate dragging the dinghy behind us and loosing speed! The solar panels will be an add on.

For more ideas about the 45DS check out dslittle's posts on this site. Dave also has a 45DS so we share ideas between us a lot of the time by email.

I can't answer the generator question as we've don't have a generator.

We're in Viveiro having sailed from Ardrossan this year. Back home at the mo for the winter.

Ian

[onlinelee]

Hi Ian,

Im sure if its a portable it will fit, lets face it the space under the stairs behind the emergency tiller access is pretty big:-) I will check out the other member and follow you both! Thanks again, have a safe trip to Gib, Lee

[electricmonk]

Oct 19, 2014 9:33:53 GMT ianpowolny said:

Lee,

We want to add an arch to make handling the dinghy more easily when at anchor and moving on a day-to-day basis. This season we found inflating and deflating each time was a pain even with a small electric compressor - we hate dragging the dinghy behind us and loosing speed! The solar panels will be an add on.

For more ideas about the 45DS check out dslittle's posts on this site. Dave also has a 45DS so we share ideas between us a lot of the time by email.

I can't answer the generator question as we've don't have a generator.

We're in Viveiro having sailed from Ardrossan this year. Back home at the mo for the winter.

Ian

Ian, its safer to use one of these

www.westmarine.com/blue-sea-systems--ac-rotary-source-selector-switches--P009_273_008_503

[hoppy]

Have you guys thought about fuel cell instead of a generator? www.efoy-comfort.com/

What about wind gen? A few years ago I was tied up next to a yacht with a Superwind. It was blowing 20knts + and at first I never even noticed it. The owner said they lived aboard and between the superwind and the 1 solar panel (fairly big, so maybe 150w) they never used shore power. They had a watermaker.

[onlinelee]

Thank you for your input, a fuel cell is a fantastic idea, I will check it our properly but suspect ( and maybe I'm wrong ) the cost and availability of the fuel to run this bit of kit will be more expensive and not as easily available as gas/petrol? Regards Lee

[electricmonk]

Hoppy,

I went round the fuel cell loop when I equipped electric monk for offshore cruising, the issues are the output from the fuel cell vs the cost of the equipment and the fuel , and not easily overcome availability of fuel. Even if I factor in maintenance and mechanical attrition I can generate electricity with a 4KVa Pajero for less than the cost per KW my marina are charging.

Then we need to discuss water-makers, did a similar amount of research on water-maker types and systems. Driven from the propshaft, a towed propeller, 12v 240v direct drive, belt drive, driven from the main engine via an electromagnetic clutch.

Not enough time for me go through the whole evaluation but in general why have a 56hp engine do a 6hp job? so all the main engine options are excluded.

We sail most of time (yes even in the Med) so a shaft driven option is no use as we have a folding prop. Towed versions are not reliable (apparently).

12v water-makers have no spare capacity so there is no pressurised water spare for scouring the membrane, so product water has to be used to clean it - DAFT!!! and no 12v system can sensibly keep up our on-board demands roughly 100-200 ltrs a day. If you have a water-maker you want water lots of water or what's the point?

downside 240v water-makers need lots of energy so you must have a minimum 3.5KVa gen set.

Then we come to repair-ability and complexity, don't want any chips, or relays, motorised valves or automation, opted for an EchoTec 240v system - its been there for 6 years and just works.

So a 240v genny that makes water and recharges the batteries makes sense and it only needs easy to find diesel fuel, it works at night if needed and when its dead calm.

But I agree, getting it right (ish) its a very difficult decision process, since I installed the genny and water-maker I have added 80watts of solar but I still maintain that most (not all) boats I see that rely on solely on solar and wind gens have half dead batteries and warm beer a week after leaving the dock.

[hoppy]

Oct 20, 2014 14:05:22 GMT electricmonk said:

I went round the fuel cell loop when I equipped electric monk for offshore cruising, the issues are the output from the fuel cell vs the cost of the equipment and the fuel , and not easily overcome availability of fuel. Even if I factor in maintenance and mechanical attrition I can generate electricity with a 4KVa Pajero for less than the cost per KW my marina are charging.

Anyone who does a cost/benefit analysis of fuel cell will never conclude that it makes financial sense. People will only buy it because of the intangible benefits of it being silent, compact and it's ability to be fitted in the cabin when compared to a gensset. Availability of the fuel is an issue in some regions, but if your cruising is limited to where it is available, then it's not a problem.

I like the idea of the fuel cell to be available to kick in an top up the batteries when the solar/wind are doing little

Oct 20, 2014 14:05:22 GMT electricmonk said:

and no 12v system can sensibly keep up our on-board demands roughly 100-200 ltrs a day. If you have a water-maker you want water lots of water or what's the point?

What do you do, fill up your cockpit each day and turn it into a jacuzzi?

I personally would like to get a watermaker when I do "full time" cruising so I am not reliant on having to go to a dock to fill up. I will still do water conservation, but not to the same extent. My plan would be a 12v that can do 20-30 litres per hour and run it an hour or two per day in the middle of the day.

Oct 20, 2014 14:05:22 GMT electricmonk said:

but I still maintain that most (not all) boats I see that rely on solely on solar and wind gens have half dead batteries and warm beer a week after leaving the dock.

That will NEVER happen on an Australian owned yacht

[electricmonk]

"My plan would be a 12v that can do 20-30 litres per hour and run it an hour or two per day in the middle of the day. "

You wont make enough to back-flush the membrane! You will have to run for 3 hours to reliably achieve 60 litres to keep. Water-makers like to be used (hence we wash the boat every day with fresh water), they rapidly deteriorate if they are idle.

Typically they will take anything from 10 - 60 minutes to produce "good" water (depends on all sorts variables), so let's suggest 30 mins is a good average, then there is the very real need to make enough extra product water to back-flush the system. 12v systems do this automatically with lots of complexity.

Then there is the power requirement; a ball park consumption for a 12v system is 380W - 32AH - (the maximum sensible discharge rate for a fully charged 330AH bank, which will be completely depleted inside 3 hours), realistically a 500W solar panel producing 400watts may keep up, but most users end up running the main engine - so we are back to : why have a 56hp engine do a 6hp job?

Compare the 380W of 12v systems to the 1.5KW of a 240v system and you get and idea of how on the ragged edge the 12v systems are.

The diesel genny option may not be quiet, it may not the greenish option (but its greener than running the main engine) but its dependable and it delivers.

Yes Aussie boats do have cold beer! But I do question whether an Aussie boat can carry enough beer for a week!!

[Zanshin]

I have a Spectra watermaker that makes about 60l per hour. The water quality goes below 200ppm within 3 minutes and the backflush when turning the watermaker off uses about 20 liters, so the first 20 minutes of running for me are to get to my 'break even' point. Thus I never run the watermaker for less than an hour and will usually try for a 2-hour run. I don't run the watermaker daily as I don't use that much water but I do try to get a run in every 2 or 3 days, although the system has an automated flush run set to go off every 7 days. As has been mentioned earlier, watermakers want to be run often. Mine uses about 12A@24V per hour, which is about 290Watts. So in order to make 100L of water you'll need about 18A@24V or 36A - about 1/3 of your current battery capacity. Luckily, one can make water while motoring (assuming the intake through-hull is well-placed), so anytime you know that you are going to run the engine for an hour you can fire up the watermaker.

[dslittle]

We went through the whole 12v 230v debate ourselves last year.
We decided to keep everything 12v, so 12v HFL DC Traveller (straight from the diesel tank and fitted in the 'generator bay') to keep he batteries charged with a 12v Spectra Watermaker and 12v AirCon for the aft cabin. The logic was that our 600w of solar will keep the batteries topped up silently when the sun shines (and we want the AirCon on). If we use more power or it gets too cloudy we can boost the batteries with the DC Charger. Additionally we now cook on an Induction Hob which is quicker (AND cooler than the gas hob)
So far, the longest that we have been off grid was three weeks and only on one occasion was the inverter prevented from boiling a kettle (after a bit of head scratching we remembered the gas!!!). We have not used the Watermaker in anger yet so I am hoping that it will be man enough for us (comments above fit in with my projected usage so we should be OK). Fridge/freezer with keel cooler currently takes about 24AH per day but anticipate that figure rising as we get into warmer water. All lights are LED.
Although we are marina based at the moment, I am quite happy that our power audit means that we should be OK when away for extended periods of time - we do not anticipate being at anchor for six months at a time!!!
Hope this helps

[abgreenbank]

Have a 50DS which is basically a stretched 45. Decided to have lots of everything , standard generator, back up honda eu20i, 2 battery chargers, a 60 amp and a 2.5 kW inverter combi that has a 80 amp charger, the 75hp yanmar now has a 125amp alt with a grooved belt, so fitted an alt to batt charger that makes it produce 125amp for longer, and fitted a victron battery moniter. Added 3 115amp hr batteries which can run auto pilot, elec winches, led lights, fridge and freezer, microwave and induction hob for 24 hours when battery moniter indicates around 70%, but does need more than 2 hours of generator or engine to recharge, generally charge every 12 hours.
But when charging can make around 70 litres of water per hour, with my DIY watermaker (cat 237 pump 3 phase 1.5hp elec motor run by a Variable frequency drive, so can also run from inverter in emergency, 3 phase  very low starting current, VFD says 6 amps. Could only get 21 inch pressure vessels in my carry on luggage so only 70 litres but the pump has capacity to run 2 40 inch pressure vessels which would be around 130 litres per hour.
have 4 100w flexible solar panels and victron mppt still to install
its probably overkill but with 36k btu air con, I ain't camping.
rgrds
ab

[sailbleu]

Oct 19, 2014 9:14:40 GMT onlinelee said:

Hi Ian,
super, really pleased to hear from another 45DS owner! Based on your comments and others in this thread it makes sense for me to use the boat in the spring ( it's in Mallorca ) and see how I get on. It was suggested by a Jeanneau agent that the Honda would fit in the anchor locker - I would remove it when not in use and store elsewhere topside. I appreciate your advice about the other portable and will check that out, you are quite right why not place it where the Onan would normally go, I assume your suggestion would fit too? Am I right in thinking you just then use the shore cable ( or shorter version ) with adaptor and plug it straight into the AC input? I really prefer not to have an arch, check out Sanshin's post with his solution, fixed on the foredeck or Velcro on the Bimini, really like that! Where are you now? Cheers Lee

The decision is up to you of course , but I would suggest , do not , DO NOT put the generator in the anchorlocker.
Been there , done that , my previous 1000watt kipor was crippled after one season.
Even when wrapped in a hood of some sort the salty bowwaters (or vapors) during heavy seas will get into the gen and destroy the prints and/or wiring in no time, regardless of the fact that they are coated with a resin.
Also have tried that at the time , running the gen in the anchorlocker creates too much heat inside and you will also need to divert the exhaust fumes. If not the gen will suffocate. I remember the bow/hull became very warm , hot infact , after a few hours of running the gen . Bear the polyester and gelcoat in mind .
In my view portable gensets and anchorlockers don't go well together.
Running the gen on deck will no doubt get people nervous in your mooring area , if you know what I mean.

I've installed mine in the starboard cockpit locker , provided forced ventilation and exhaust cooling which is necessairy when buitlt in like this.
Smoke- and hydrocarbon (gasoline remenber) alarms present and the waterlock is connected to the VP exhaust making sure no genwater can enter the engine.
No disturbing noise when the locker is closed , just to keep the neighbours happy.



Unles you're one of the happy few having no problems coughing up 10 to 15 grant for a diesel panda gen this is a very economical alternative.
Opinions are mixed an divided , but for me a generator on board is like a gift from heaven.


Regards

[Xantia]

We live and cruise in Tasmania which is the same latitude as the northern Med but definitely not as sunny, being in the roaring forties. Solar still works well, but we have always just used a Honda EU10i sitting in the cockpit on a piece of carpet. It stores easily in the cockpit locker. It easily runs the 40A charger which came with the boat and is especially useful if the battery low voltage alarm sounds for a quick fix. The important thing is that it is much lighter than the 2kW generators, saving severe back pain when lifting it. I have checked with people anchored nearby and have had no noise complaints in three years, but it is noticeable in the saloon, and very noisy in the aft berth. This Honda was half submerged in sea water on a previous boat but after a fresh water wash and a day to dry out has performed flawlessly. It does show a little rust though.

[sailbleu]

Antia ,

I'm sure that submersed gen was rinsed with freshwater immediatly after it was taken out of the water.
Indeed , how many outboards have been saved by this procedure.Provided they where not too long in saltwater , because than galvanic corrosion steps in quite rapidly
But in an anchorlocker you have a salty enviroment and oxigen , lethal combination those two.

My inverter gen has an automatic RPM control ( most modern gens have that now) depending on the required load.
Supplying 500 watt makes it really whispering , but when the oven or airco is turned on the lockers lit has to be (almost) closed.
Honda is a good gen , but also nearly twice the price of a kipor for instance.
I see that Hyundai (Korea) started selling 3000 watt (inverter) gens with electric start - remote controlled - for an attractive price .
Unfortunately mine is a handstart , but is still going strong after 4 years of fairly intensive use.
Next one will definitely be an electric start.

Regards