Ball Valves, SO 409 2011

[canyon]

Hi,

I am the new owner of a  SO 409 2011 3 berth, 1 head. 
I thought this photo maybe of interest. 
This is the condition of the original ball valve from the Head sink drain which I found while exercising all the ball valves. 
Anyone have similar experiences?

[sitara]

Hi Canyon and welcome to the forum,
I have had similar failures with ball valves in off-boat situations. The valves were old and had been subject to quite a few frost/thaw cycles. There is plenty of information on the forum about the poor quality of Jeanneau stopcocks and through hull fittings.

[j24sailor]

Hi Canyon, we have exactly the same boat and haven't had any issues. I do check regularly because there have been issues just like the other post said. I am just keeping an eye on them at the moment. When they need to be changed over I have heard good things about www.trudesignplastics.com/products but haven't tried them yet but will look into them.

[MalcolmP]

Following the previous thread jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/2722/seacocks-concern-cost I am currently in the process of fully inspecting/ upgrading our valves/thru-hulls/tails on our 2008 39i

As the photos of the engine intake below clearly show the tail piece has suffered significant dezincification and was almost entirely reduced to pink copper which snapped of in my hand when I pulled the pipe... (boat was out of the water)  so I am very glad I am going through this costly process whilst the boat is safely ashore

However the actual thru-hulls are all in very good condition and the T ball valves also seemed OK.  In consultation with the boatyard I have cut out the heads outlet (using the wooden plug and holesaw technique and will be replacing that with Trudesign plastic.

The rest of the system I am retaining the existing through hulls which and putting on new DZR t balls and DZR tails

Getting access to the galley valve was quite hard and required quite a lot of the saloon joinery to be removed (although actually that only took about 30 mins - it did require making a cut in one of the very large pieces Jeanneau had originally built the dinette seat from)

I will take some photos of the installed Trudesign fitting once installed.

[dbostrom]

It seems as though this general issue has been covered in a number of threads but as this is one of the more recent I'll dump some more data on the topic of porous skin fittings here.

We're pulling our boat (2010 SO39i) in about 2 months for cleaning, painting and taking care of "issues."  Seacocks appear equally as shiny as some of the rotten examples covered here on JONF so I'm planning on replacing at least those regardless of their sparkle unless I can definitely identify them as DZR in reasonable condition.

What I'm wondering about is the thru-hulls themselves. I've read that the thru-hulls on our boats are of bronze, or DZR, or plain brass depending on who's talking, but how definite is that information?  Here's an older Beneteau that sank at the dock due to a wasted thru-hull, so there's a real issue for some boats. However, here's a technical advisory from a charter management firm's* maintenance specialists indicating that Groupe Beneteau changed to DZR thru-hulls in the 2006 time frame. As well, there's information in the technical advisory on how to identify the improved parts which apparently are sourced from Plastimo, along with Plastimo part numbers. This is quite specific information; hard to imagine it's fiction made up by an armchair shipwright. Presumably these updated fittings are common across the GB world domination complex. I'm going to take a close look at our fittings and see if they match up to the description of the improved parts.

In the Plastimo catalog the parts mentioned in the charter firm technical advisory are identified as CuZn36, "marine grade brass for added corrosion resistance." The catalog photos show hexagonal shape of the inner wall of the fittings, a marker for the improved parts. Also easy to see why the newer part is so production-friendly; notice the installation tool arrangement.

Material properties of CuZn36, including "Well resistant to water, water vapour, several saline solutions and various organic fluids. Not resistant to acid, damp sulfur compounder, damp ammonia, especially sensitive against stress corrosion cracking and dezincification in a not stress relieved condition." Stress relief (after snugging up against a hull, for instance) requires raising the temperature of the part to 200-300°C, not really an option I suppose. 


*_{Sneer at charter boats but what could be a better laboratory for discovering faults other than oodles of production boats being run absurdly hard by skippers demanding everything from the sublime to the ridiculous?} 

[sitara]

Great information dbostrom, many thanks for the post. Hopefully Jeanneau is now using better quality brass (DZR). However given the consequeces of a through hull, stopcock or hosetail failure my plan is to replace all the "brass" fittings with the Trudesign plastic (glass reinforced nylon) over the next couple of years. First on the list is the engine water intake and in this case I will use the monitored ball valve to prevent starting the engine with the valve shut and hopefully increase the lifespan of the impeller.

[dbostrom]

Me too, Sitara; we're going to be fairly aggressive about this. Seacocks this turn, thru-hulls next unless we find weakness now in which case those too. I think we'll go with Marelon in our case.

It's just amazing how much BS one has to cut through on stuff like this; our local yard folks have all sorts of invented, imaginative issues with polymer thruhulls and simultaneously seem fairly oblivious to the differences between bronze, brass, DZR and the impact of those on temporary, dissolving thru-hulls and seacocks. 

"Well, your seacocks will burn in a fire!" That sounds more like a feature, not a bug. A boat that self-extinguishes or automatically turns into a total loss is good. 

"If you're sailing the Antarctic they'll be brittle." Dude, we're at 47 degrees N. If this boat ever reaches 60 degrees it'll be in 24 hour daylight.

Meanwhile the actual fittings are fizzing away like fuses on bombs. 

Polymer hulls and polymer fittings are better than hulls that are dinner for organisms and fittings that are random batteries. In general it's better if boats and their parts are neither food nor soluble. Enough of the wood and metal cult. (/rant). 

[MalcolmP]

I meant to give an update on our 2008 39i ball valve upgrades, so here goes. All the actual thru-hulls were found to be in good condition - no sign of electrolysis, apart from maybe an issue with the main holding tank one, which did have some slight surface pitting (but possibly due to OEM poor finishing) the ONLY dezincification I and the yard could find was in the hose tails. So decided that there was no point in disturbing the thru-hulls (including the raw water engine intake) with the exception of the heads outlet which was always stiff to use (this is standard for 2" T valves) so replaced that with the TruDesign plastic - see image below - well made and we were able to fit it direct without resorting to the 90 degree pre-bend that Jeanneau had fitted - their standard 120 deg allowed the hose to be directly connected - needed to use a Vetus exhaust hose as the plastic type are just too inflexible - the yard claim that WC odour should not penetrate the hose - but that might be an issue longer term. 

As you will note in the photo this was bedded onto a piece of marine ply epoxied into place as the hull thickness was less than I would have liked to see, as part of the factory process when they originally fit the thru-hulls is to skim an area about 4" - 10cm in diameter of the layup so that the backing flange beds onto a smooth surface - but in doing so this does reduce hull thickness - fitting ply after bedding onto epoxy seemed a more robust solution 

All the other valves and tails were replaced with certified DZR bronze units. On the 39i the most fiddly one to get to is the sink drain as this is under the saloon berth, outboard of the calorifier. To get access you need to remove some of the saloon seating, some of which is not only screwed but sikaflexed into position - but with care can be prized out without visual damage - I did though also purposely cut through the width of the long saloon piece to make future access easier. The heating ducts also need to be removed to gain access, so quite a fiddle 

[sitara]

Hi Malcolm,
How hard is the Trudesign 2" ball valve to turn? compared to the standard which is pretty stiff.

On this page (http://www.chsmith.com.au/Products/Tru-Design-Manual-Ball-Valves.html) there is a picture of a fire damaged tdesign ball valve - seems like it wont leak and put out the fire!

[MalcolmP]

Really easily - but due to the Jeanneau fiberglass hole/lid design you need longish fingers to reach around the pipe - but the handle then turns without any problem at all. the Boatyard who installed them had not used them before, but they were really impressed - well thought out piece of kit

[sitara]

Thanks Malcolm, it will be on my to-do list!

[dbostrom]

Interesting about the non-leaking valve-in-a-fire. A fun experiment to try is filling a paper cup and putting it on a gas stove; the paper will burn to the waterline but go no further until water boils away, exposing more paper. Too stinky to try that with a plastic valve.

As part of a head upgrade (golly the platform in the stern head of a SO39i is awfully Jabsco-specific) I'm adding an access cover in the stern cabin for reaching the overboard discharge valve. Hugging the toilet is still no fun.