Bow leak 2011 Jeanneau SO 409

[happysailor]

Has anyone experienced a leak in the bow area with water accumulating in the most forward compartment under the v-berth. We can see a small stream of brown water coming from an area around the bulkhead caulk. If I had to guess I would say it's coming from a void underneath the anchor locker. We are having a very difficult time figuring out the source of the water and would be grateful if anyone has any ideas or has had a similar issue.

[rene460]

Hi happysailor,

Our boat is much smaller and no doubt has a different arrangement at the bow, but we did discover a little pool of water in the bottom of the hull, right at the very bow under the anchor locker.

On exploring around the anchor locker moulding, partly by reaching up, using mirrors and by removing the little access openings that allow the pulpit fixing nuts to be reached, I was surprised to find how wet the whole area was, i.e. the inside surface of the hull next to the anchor locker which is an inset moulding, not part of the hull.

We dried out the pool and increased the ventilation in the closed spaces by installing a vent in the bulkhead the very front of the Vee berth.  Clearly there was enough warm inside air reaching the hull (which hardly provides any insulation from the winter air temperatures outside), to allow significant condensation.  When the water runs down the hull wall it accumulates, and the water is not warm enough to evaporate it again.  Ventilation seems to have mostly fixed the problem but I am following through on those slats for the bunk as on our coldest days we still get a little dampness under the mattress. I sealed those access hatches when I replaced them as there seemed a possibility that water could also enter around them.  I am pleased that the area is now mostly dry however, as the winch electrics are all located in that space.

Another potential water source that may explain the colour, could be any problem with the anchor locker drain pipe or fittings, particularly if the anchor brings up any mud in your waterway, that gets washed off in the locker.

rene460

[stack]

I have a 37', and still looking for the leak. The bow pulpit fittings the cause of some of the leak, but I still get clean clear water forward, mostly when sailing in rough seas.

Great Lakes sailor Joe

[tedp]

Last year I had water coming in under the forward bunks which proved to come from the big circular access covers in the anchor well, next to the pulpit fittings where you can get at the mounting bolts. I sealed them by pushing in sealant under the edges all round. One cover proved to have a slight split in the centre - this was sealed as well. Problem over!

Clean water accumulating when sailing in rough seas may indicate leaking covers as described above, but it can also indicate a problem with the water tank under the bunk.

[MalcolmP]

May 26, 2014 16:58:37 GMT happysailor said:

Has anyone experienced a leak in the bow area with water accumulating in the most forward compartment under the v-berth. We can see a small stream of brown water coming from an area around the bulkhead caulk. If I had to guess I would say it's coming from a void underneath the anchor locker. We are having a very difficult time figuring out the source of the water and would be grateful if anyone has any ideas or has had a similar issue.

When you say you can see a stream of brown water - is that when you are sailing in heavy seas or when you have say a high pressure hose on deck?  Always worth doing the disgusting but useful taste test (presuming you sail in salt water) at least will show if it might be down to condensation - which can produce surprising volumes.

[jlasail]

I don't have an answer to the problem but on my 2014 SO 409 I also experienced a bow leak while sailing in rough sea. I had water near the starboard porthole (on the vinyl), on the wooden shelf below the porthole and on the bed surface. I did not do the taste test but I am not sure I would be able to detect the brackish water from Chesapeake bay anyhow.
I tried to reproduce it using a hose but was unsuccessful.
Ideas are welcome. Could it be such that while sailing in rough sea, the strain on the hull could create an opening aroung the porthole  that would close down when the boat hull is not strained?
Thank you for your suggestions.

jlasail (beginner)

[MalcolmP]

Hi jlasail

Small leaks are notoriously difficult to find and often hard to replicate when berthed, but as your boat is a brand new 2014 model the dealer should be fully investigating the issue. I am very doubtful it would be structural, more likely an issue of incorrect/inadequate sealant bonding or application - maybe around the port or a stanchion fitting. The dealer may need to remove the headlining in the area, but I would be pressing them to do that as the first step

Malcolm

[jlasail]

Thanks Malcom for the recommendation. I will do that.
jlasail

[happysailor]

Thank you for all the suggestions! The water appears in the forward compartment sporadically. Sometimes it is there after a hearty sail and sometimes not. We don't use a high pressure hose on our boat so I doubt that could be the source. On our latest trip we discovered during a particularly heavy downpour, that we had a leak where the mast is stepped and now we are wondering if water from that source could somehow make its way forward during heavy seas. Condensation is certainly another possibility. I have done the taste test and it is definitely fresh water, not brackish.
The mast has been resealed so we will see if that fixes the problem.

[toddster]

Did you ever resolve this situation?  I recently bought a 2013 409 and it had water in the bow compartments aft of the v-berth storage area.  I thought I sponged it all out but after a recent trip i noticed water again and found a lot in the port compartment just forward of the v-berth door... might be that the water has just been there a long time and is sloshing around but I'm curious if you resolved yours... ?

[rene460]

Hi toddster, Congratulations on your purchase and welcome to the forum, you will find many like minded people here, it’s a good place to hang out.  You have many wonderful experiences ahead of you with your selection.  We all look forward to hearing more about how it all goes.

Mysterious leaks can often be quite tricky to find.  The good news it that it’s fresh water, so possibly either from your water system or condensation.  A minor leak of rain water is also possible and can be tricky to track down once it arrives in the bottom of the bilges.  None of those will ever sink the boat, but it’s worth tracking them down to have a dry boat.  A tell tale short run of the water pump in the night when no one is using a tap is a useful clue, particularly if it occurs more than once.  Also worth putting a sheet of paper under the filter on the inlet to the fresh water pump to see if it comes from there.

If you search for the topic on in the General topics section you will find lots of useful tips on how to proceed.

rene460

[toddster]

Thanks rene460 - very useful tips.  I’ll follow up on those!!!  I’ve cleaned up all of the bow area and am now awaiting to see when and where it starts to show up again.  As I just purchased the boat, I had the seller re-bed the stanchions just forward of the mast.  No idea if that is the cause but good to eliminate one possible cause.  The prior owner had tied down a pretty hefty sailing dinghy on the bow and one theory was that the stress on those stanchions had caused them to work enough to leak....

stay tuned!

[toddster]

well, it turns out I disagreeessment about fresh water may be wrong.  I had dried up the entire bow area, noticed no water, it had rained some, still not water.  then today I took the boat out sailing in a fresh breeze - heeling pretty good for a couple hours, and now there is a decent amount of salt water in the bilge in the bow.  it definitely isn't coming from forward  - the bilge area under the v-berth storage is so dry that it has dust... so I thought maybe it was through hulls from the forward head, can't find any water / wetness there.  so my next idea is that the v-berth lower windows (one on each side) leak when heeled over and submerged with waves, etc.  anyone ever experience leaks with those?  it looks like there is a fine bead of sealant around them on the outside... might try to re-do that.  any other thoughts are welcome.

[sitara]

Hi toddster,

Check the screws around the through hull windows, they were loose on my SO 36i and there had been a very small leak, just enough to seize the lower screws. I tightened what I could and now there is no evidence of a leak. A significant leak through those windows would be a worry.

[gre2]

May 28, 2014 13:09:26 GMT stack said:

I have a 37', and still looking for the leak. The bow pulpit fittings the cause of some of the leak, but I still get clean clear water forward, mostly when sailing in rough seas.

Great Lakes sailor Joe

[gre2]

Sailor Joe. We have a SO 37 with similar problem. I think the water is from the aft vertical post of the port side of the bow pulpit. Were you able to tighten the nuts for the bow pulpit. I haven't started to pull things apart yet. Would appreciate any help you can give me.

[toddster]

I'm still chasing my leak.  I believe it is indeed coming from the anchor locker but it is elusive.  I wish someone had a diagram of the construction for the area around the anchor locker.  I've flooded the locker at the dock, no problems.  and when sailing in rough seas I can actually see it coming in through the forward bulkhead along the edges about 1 ft from the bottom most part of the hull along the edges. but I can't see anywhere in the anchor locker where there could possibly be a leak.  

[danimal]

I had a leak in my starboard v-bert window on my 2014 409.  It happened shortly after commissioning after pounding into heavy seas off Monterey, CA.  Even so, it should not have leaked and must have been poorly seated at the factory.  Anyway, it was fixed under warranty but started leaking again in French Polynesia 4 years later.  I did a temp fix with silicon applied from the exterior.  Doesn't look good but worked.  Currently about to pop the window off again myself (out of warranty now I asked).  Any advice out there on process and best adhesive to reseat window?

PS.  I also had a lot of water flood in from the anchor locker due to a plugged anchor locker drain (my fault) combined with a poorly installed seal around one of the windless power cables where it passed through the anchor locker "bulkhead"  That's fixed now but where the cables pass through are not totally watertight so any issues with anchor locker drainage would still likely cause an issue.  

[toddster]

Leak fixed!  I'm very happy to report that I have resolved the leak on my 2013 409. In the end the culprit was an undetectable leak in the floor of the anchor locker.  The reason why I say it was undetectable is that I could flood the anchor locker all day and not see water every coming into the boat. I even plugged the anchor locker drain, flooded it and observed no water existing the anchor locker after several hours. 

In the end it turns out what was happening is that the floor of the anchor locker had a hairline crack that was leaking water into the void beneath the anchor locker but in front of the forward cabin bulkhead.  This void would fill up and while at the dock when it was full, the anchor locker would appear to drain fine and not leak.  While underway - particularly when in rough seas or well heeled over, the water in that void could enter the forward vberth from openings above the anchor locker drain level and splash into the forward bilge area.  The big aha moment came when we were motoring in rough seas and my wife took a video of the water sloshing in.  I was then able to snake a 1/4" tube into the void and pumped out about 12 gallons of water!  I then flooded the anchor locker again for a while, and, voila!  more water showed up in the void! 

I resealed the entire anchor locker floor with 3m 5200 and after several rounds of testing there is still no water entering the void!

what made this further challenging to detect is the liner in some parts of the bilge for these boats. Water was appearing to collect in the bilge just forward of the mast but it was nearly impossible to determine where it was coming from.  I created this image to visualize things.
bow diagram


Here's a video showing the water coming in during rough seas.  The water here is visible but when heeled over the water would enter and run along the side of the bow before making its way to the bilge much farther aft.
leak video


Here's  a photo of the anchor locker after I sealed it.

anchor seal

After discovering this I looked around some more and found another report of the same thing on a Hanse:

Hanse

so all is well that ends well.  I thought I'd post it here in case anyone else runs into the same problem.

[Don Reaves]

Congratulations on a good find. Perhaps this will help others with mysterious water in the forward part of the boat.

[MalcolmP]

Excellent, great research and solution, toddster.

I hope you don't mind but to save people downloading the pdf's unless they wish. I have added image copies below.

Keep up the good work - would like to add this to Hint's and Tips too if you agree.

Apr 3, 2020 16:26:54 GMT toddster said:

Leak fixed!  I'm very happy to report that I have resolved the leak on my 2013 409. In the end the culprit was an undetectable leak in the floor of the anchor locker.  The reason why I say it was undetectable is that I could flood the anchor locker all day and not see water every coming into the boat. I even plugged the anchor locker drain, flooded it and observed no water existing the anchor locker after several hours. 

In the end it turns out what was happening is that the floor of the anchor locker had a hairline crack that was leaking water into the void beneath the anchor locker but in front of the forward cabin bulkhead.  This void would fill up and while at the dock when it was full, the anchor locker would appear to drain fine and not leak.  While underway - particularly when in rough seas or well heeled over, the water in that void could enter the forward vberth from openings above the anchor locker drain level and splash into the forward bilge area.  The big aha moment came when we were motoring in rough seas and my wife took a video of the water sloshing in.  I was then able to snake a 1/4" tube into the void and pumped out about 12 gallons of water!  I then flooded the anchor locker again for a while, and, voila!  more water showed up in the void! 

I resealed the entire anchor locker floor with 3m 5200 and after several rounds of testing there is still no water entering the void!

what made this further challenging to detect is the liner in some parts of the bilge for these boats. Water was appearing to collect in the bilge just forward of the mast but it was nearly impossible to determine where it was coming from.  I created this image to visualize things.




Here's a video showing the water coming in during rough seas.  The water here is visible but when heeled over the water would enter and run along the side of the bow before making its way to the bilge much farther aft.



leak video


Here's  a photo of the anchor locker after I sealed it.



After discovering this I looked around some more and found another report of the same thing on a Hanse:

Hanse

so all is well that ends well.  I thought I'd post it here in case anyone else runs into the same problem.

[ihsan]

Congragulations and many thanks for sharing. I have a similar problem with my 2020 795.  The distributer, after corresponding with France,  made two unsuccesful attempts for solving the problem of water coming from the chain locker section. I will pass on your solution to them. I hope it may help.

[MalcolmP]

Now added to Hints and Tips

www.jeanneau-owners.com/hintsandtips/bowleak409.html

Have got quite a lot more projects to add, when I find the time...

[Xantia]

Hi Everyone,

It's been a long time since I was here, but I came looking for a solution to the exact same problem in our 2011 SO42DS. We have been plagued with water leaks under the V berth. The first problems were caused by leaking from the washdown pump which was installed there. It uses the forward head seawater inlet and the inlet O ring seals were slightly distorted by the way it was mounted. Rejigging the mounting fixed the problem for years. Condensation is still a slight problem though.

Then when I checked yesterday I found exactly the problem described in the post. So I'll dry and reseal the floor of the anchor locker. Thanks everyone.

Ian

[toddster]

Hi Xantia - good luck tracking it down. I hope the anchor seal fixes it. it is a relatively easy job and at least you can check that off the list of possibilities. Note that in my case, once sealed, I had to drain the water in the void beneath it. I did this with a 1/4" silicone tube and a small model airplane fuel pump to pump out the water. 

One more note - make sure you use a flexible sealant as that area needs to flex. I was originally going to glass/expoy it but that would have ultimately cracked. I used 3m 5200 and 2 years later it is going strong.