379 shoal keel performance

[rapide]

We've had our 379 shoal keel for about 8 months. This is our first experience with large boats so we really need other owner's and 379 sailor's opinions and experiences. We have the shoal keel because we sail mostly in a bay that's about 10+ feet deep. Getting in and out of the local marinas is tricky when the north wind has emptied the lake that feeds the bay.

But it doesn't seem the shoal keel is making the boat at all competitive. We have a PHRF rating of 128. But the boat is performing no where near that. I guess technically we can point as well as other boats but we just slide sideways. So the speed is not able to overcome the slide when we are racing with other boats. The boat seems to only sailed heeled over. Even when reefed. I think traditionally that boats go faster when sailed flatter.

I may not be explaining this well. We are new at this, but we've had several people sail with us that suggest the shoal keel is just not performing as the numbers indicate.

Thanks in advance.

[bikerwookie]

I cannot speak for the 379 as our experience is with a 33i shoal draft. We have had the boat a year and done around 75 races. I have raced for around 20 years and had reasonable results in other boats.
We do get results in this one but it has taken some learning. We can win in heavy weather as long as there are zero mistakes. In light air we are underpowered and overweight.

We always sail fairly upright. The vmg goes through the floor if it is over pressed. Shoal keels should rate around 15seconds per mile slower than deep draft. Having said that we can out point boats in heavy air and tend to luff it up to sail at a given angle. It's a fine balancing act and keeping an eye on the vmg is the best way to get a feel for it.

We have the polars on an ipad and the instruments all link into iregatta. We normally get within 3% of the polars on our performance indicator.

If pointing is an issue try inhaulers on the jib or have a look at mast rake. The man on the main makes a large difference. We bring the traveller over half way. Sails on ours at the technique voiles Dacron as no performance package was offered on the 33i shoal draft but everyone on board seems to agree they look fine. Jib car positions make a large difference as does trim fore and aft.

No matter how well we think we sailed it there is always more to come. We are a serious drinking team with a bit of a sailing problem!

It may be the rating is slightly out we race py in the uk so cannot comment on yours.

Hope this helps.

[rapide]

It does help. Thanks for the information. We have the same type/brand of sails. We'll be in another race this weekend and will keep what you've said in mind.

Thanks again.

[JEF]

Yacht Goldfinch SO379, Shoal draft 1.5 wing keel , Twin rudders , Std sail pack , Feathering prop, Fully loaded with offshore cruising gear to Cat 2 spec

Hi ...Our coastal cruising area over last 18 months has been East Cost / Thames , we do not race in club events but have cruised extensavly over this period  since initial launch late 2012.

Performace wise, can only quote our experiences to date .... Overall avarage cruising speeds  Close Reach 6.2kts ... Beam Reach 6.7kts ... Broard Reach 7.3kts

Overall sailing average 6.7kts to date .. I do not have a polar chart for the shoal draft version only the deep 2m draft version but comparing my date to that chart .. the shoal draft losses a small percentage of performance but with odvious gains in other areas.

We find when pressed she tends to heel quickly to approx 20degrees and then seems to bounce 20 to 23 degrees on the chine , along with the twin rudders at this angle the leeward rudder is approx vertical and the yacht tracks if on rails....  We also tend to reef early when wind gets up towards 20 kts and keeping the sails well balanced she just keeps charging on (less is definatly more )     Agree with the previuos comments as per 33i .. with our fully loaded yacht and 3 crew trim is a key factor in performance and we mostly try to keep weight out of the bow and more aft to midships .. therfore we run with min water in the bow tank, also with our 130 percent jib.. car position is important , also regulary rig a barber hauler to get the sheet more forward and our to the rail.. samll tweeks but all adds up.

We did not purchase this boat with the intension to race .. but hey ... No cruiser intends to race until they get overtaken by another yacht !!!  with that said we are very very pleased with her to date,  rarely get beaten to the club bar ... not a good thing when your paying !

ps .. Still tweeking the yacht spec .. this season .. deep third reef in main sail , cunningham in main sail & adjustable genoa cars from cockpit and of course we ae still learning what this yacht can do and how best to set her up.

Hope this helps .. enjoy your SO 379

[puravida35]

Jan 21, 2014 16:04:19 GMT rapide said:

We've had our 379 shoal keel for about 8 months. This is our first experience with large boats so we really need other owner's and 379 sailor's opinions and experiences. We have the shoal keel because we sail mostly in a bay that's about 10+ feet deep. Getting in and out of the local marinas is tricky when the north wind has emptied the lake that feeds the bay..

A little off topic, but it sounds like you sail out of Clear Lake TX.  We just recently moved our SO35 to Clear Lake from Lake Texoma and we're still getting used to only seeing a few of feet beneath our keel. Our choice of the deep keel (6ft) seemed sensible for Lake Texoma where depths are generally 60 - 100 ft in the main lake, but it really keeps us on our toes in the Galveston area.

But I've been told the following about sailing in the area...
"You ain't been around, if you ain't run aground" (from my insurance agent)
"If you got stuck, you must have been going to slow" (from my son)

[rapide]

Goldfinch, thanks for the data. Very helpful. The same setup as our boat except we do not have a feathering prop. Unfortunately we don't have much hard data, in that' we've done more comparative sailing, I.e. We are slower than the other boats. However, we took some data last week and will continue to do so. We do have the shoal keel polar if you would like a copy. The data points from last weekend showed we have a great deal of improvement to make. Our boat seems to heel without much provocation and then sit on the chine. We did not buy the boat as a racer either, but racing has let us get familiar with the boat much quicker than had we not raced. From the sailing we have done, adjustable cars from the cockpit seems a good addition.

[rapide]

Purvida35, yes we are in Waterford Harbor. A challenge to get out sometimes and impossible at other times. And yes, mostly you just plow through. Galveston Bay is a huge change from Lake Texoma. 6 feet is pretty ambitious around here in the winter.

[puravida35]

We're neighbors then Rapide, our boat is next door at Watergate. There's a beautiful 379 slipped next to us but I guess that's not you since your at Waterford. Just splashed our boat in November so this is our first winter in the Bay so we haven't had much chance to get into trouble yet. We live in Dallas, but we make it to the bay a couple of times a month for some Laser training for my son (a lot of great coaches in the area).

We've owned a shallow draft wing-keel boat in the past so I know the feeling. Sometimes it seemed like we made as much leeway as headway.... but eventually kind of figured out what worked and didn't work. We would find ourselves loosing ground on the windward legs but catching (and often passing) on the reaches and runs. Sounds like you're on the right approach by using race experience to figure out your boats attributes. It should pay off in the end.

[rapide]

Our boat is very similar to the one next to you. They have the roller furling main and we have the stack pack.

It's great to see all the kids sailing out in the lake and bay. Welcome to the area. Hopefully we'll see you out on the water.

[JEF]

Hi Rapide....

Thanks for your comments ... keep sending your performance data its interesting to compare like for like and learn any sailing tips. We are always tweaking or adding kit to the yacht that gives us that bit more cruising speed within a budget of course, last season it was the feathering prop that gave us approx +0.75Kt (sailing) over the standard fixed 3 blade prop.

Please send me a copy of the SO379 shoal keel polar diagram, this would be a good future reference point for me.

ps. Another SO379 deep keep yacht has just arrived in our marina, so hope I can get some performance comparisons in the coming season.

All the best with the racing.



 

[rapide]

I've attached the polar for the shoal keel. I'll be very interested to hear how the head to head racing goes between the deep keel and the shoal keel.

[JEF]

Hi Rapide

Thanks ... very interesting. we do not have the code zero just the standard 132 gen and what I call the 'BIG DOG ' a new Tri Rad cruising chute which we are still testing. will let you know performance.

Agree ... it would be very interesting head to head with deep keel version in standard spec .. overall I doubt if their is much in it !!! will advise

Ps GOLDFINCH ... we just love this yacht she is reasonably quick , Safe ( to date have sailed high BF7 ) plus she is a good looker. She may not be a twitchy racer but 'horses for courses' she gets the job done.


Enjoy

[rapide]

For those of you with stackpacks, what do you do with the stack pack when the mainsail is up? do you pull it up snug to the sail? Try to wrap it around the boom somehow?

Also, how big of a crew do you normally sail with? For the winter races we have only been racing with a crew of two.

Also, how do you get your best downwind performance? wing on wing? tacking?

thanks...

[JEF]

Hi Rapide

We have a stackpack ... once main is set we just let the stackpack hang. Normaly when i need to push on I  find it better to sail with 3 crew who know what sailing it is all about .. seems this is a balanced number on a twin helm 37' yacht in this set up and working as a team we find we can get things done fast in most situations . On easy going cruising passages i sail mostly with 2 crew. Sailing on a dead run we run wing on wing dependant on wind speed .

Do not know much about race handicaps but looking at other SO379 threads in this forum , differing PHRF ratings are quoted ?? Think you need to look at this.

Presume being so keen on the racing... you have the optional FOF prop fitted and the race antifouling ?

Last season fitted a feathering prop to 'Goldfinch ' and sailing this alone gave us +0.7kt more.. and we do try to keep the botton as clean as possable. Other than fit the performance Laminate sails (budget allowing ) thats it for us on the go faster goodies 2014. 

[jdl01]

Hello Rapide,
Malcolm [webmaster] has polars for the deep draft 379 - you may wish to access them and compare. Basically, you cannot match a deep keel/rudder sistership going hard to weather in a chop. However you should be able to hold your own on a beam to broad reach. Set your racing game plan accordingly.
Our jack stays are brought forward and held tight to the mast underway. We have blocks on the upper spreaders through which we run long leads for the jackstays down to chest height on the mast for easy adjustment. We then have added Velcro tabs to the cover allowing us to wrap it under the boom when sailing.
A low drag prop is critical to achieving any kind of performance. The factory option flexofold is a pretty good unit to consider.
We have the performance pack composite sails, but even then the provided battens are a bit soft, requiring lots of attention to the vang and outhaul.
We doubled the purchase on the main sheet and main traveller, which allows for quicker manual response before having to go to full winching. It's a cheap fix and will help with mark roundings.
Generally, it's a good rig that responds well to the adjustment capabilities provided.

[rapide]

Thanks Goldfinch and jdlo1. Good things to consider. We are going to get a bottom job for next season which is a few months off. Not sure what to use for the bottom job. Suggestions? No folding prop yet. We are still trying to figure out what we get from the boat versus what we are getting from sailing it.

[JEF]

Rapide

Two big subjects What prop, What antifoul

Get them both right and it will give you higher speed..  think the experts state circa +1 knt ... I would recomend you do your own research into both measured againt what you want from the yacht and the type of sailing you predominantly cover. Undoutably a lot of people will give a lot of personal advice and it can become very confusing on what is best practice. 


Think you are on the right track ... we also in the fist season stuck with the standard prop and plain cruising antifoul and then documented our performace stats over 6 months befor making any changes. We ended fitting a top quality self pitching 3 blade feathering prop ( Autoprop ) because we predominantly cruise and International Optima antifoul.

Look at the FlexOfold 3 blade which is a factory option.. expensive but you get quality and performance , if more racing consider the FOF 2 blade , look up the test reports on the FOF web site.

Antifoul, what will give you the best protection over a set period, dependant on sailing area? we are in a high fouling area so applied a top quality soft erroding paint. If again you are more intrested in speed then you need a harder race type antifoul paint that you can feather down to a very smooth finish .. but expect to scrubb the bottom  at regular periods through the season to retain best performance. 

Collate the SO379 sailing data from the x5 world wide test reports on the web if not already refferenced, but when drawing any conparrisons consider the reported yachts spec, most test reports are on performance optimised boats , best rig , folding prop, spotlessly clean & faired bottoms etc. To date I think only one press test report has covered the shoal wing keel 379 version in Canadian Yachting report Feb 2012 ... the rest are on the deep keel.

We keep trying different additions and tweeks plus recording all the relevent data + having fun of course, and over the last 10 passages of x4 hours and more in variable conditions / North sea areas we have averaged a SOG of 6.75kts which I think is a good overall average for a fully loaded 11.3m yacht  Next season I considering an harder type antifouling and a mid season lift & scrub.

[jdl01]

Hi Rapide,
No one is going to seriously try and race a 379, so I don't think you need consider a hard, burnished racing paint. Ablatives are attractive because they perform better during their life cycle of 1 or 2 years [ depending on local conditions]. Also your non ablative paint is some day going to require you to do a major bottom scraping project to remove it. Careful, smooth and well feathered application is more important than the choice of paint brands if one season speed is the prime concern. We use a thinned ablative [Pettitt] applied with a very short knap roller, very lightly burnished with gyprock sanding mesh.

[bikerwookie]

They said we wouldn't seriously race a shoal keel cruiser. We don't we have a great laugh doing it and missed out on two massive trophies by under 10 seconds over 5hrs. Keep up the hard work getting better at it is part of the is the joy of racing especially in something that shouldn't be raced in others opinions.

Some motivation - the silverware from this years efforts.


Attachment Deleted

[JEF]

When duscuusing SO379 race performance one member said quote ...

'She is a pleasure to sail and with a North American phrf rating of 117, she can hold her own against the competition'

I agree fully with bikerwookie, with that silverware he seems to me he knows what he is talking about when raceing a shoal draft Jeanneau, top man well done mate .

 
Enjoy and take it seriously !   Taking part is what counts and you can only learn from the experience , good luck.

[lokum]

Jan 21, 2014 20:51:40 GMT bikerwookie said:

I cannot speak for the 379 as our experience is with a 33i shoal draft. We have had the boat a year and done around 75 races. I have raced for around 20 years and had reasonable results in other boats.
We do get results in this one but it has taken some learning. We can win in heavy weather as long as there are zero mistakes. In light air we are underpowered and overweight.

We always sail fairly upright. The vmg goes through the floor if it is over pressed. Shoal keels should rate around 15seconds per mile slower than deep draft. Having said that we can out point boats in heavy air and tend to luff it up to sail at a given angle. It's a fine balancing act and keeping an eye on the vmg is the best way to get a feel for it.

We have the polars on an ipad and the instruments all link into iregatta. We normally get within 3% of the polars on our performance indicator.

If pointing is an issue try inhaulers on the jib or have a look at mast rake. The man on the main makes a large difference. We bring the traveller over half way. Sails on ours at the technique voiles Dacron as no performance package was offered on the 33i shoal draft but everyone on board seems to agree they look fine. Jib car positions make a large difference as does trim fore and aft.

No matter how well we think we sailed it there is always more to come. We are a serious drinking team with a bit of a sailing problem!

It may be the rating is slightly out we race py in the uk so cannot comment on yours.

Hope this helps.

[garrettw]

Jan 27, 2014 22:17:09 GMT puravida35 said:

We're neighbors then Rapide, our boat is next door at Watergate. There's a beautiful 379 slipped next to us but I guess that's not you since your at Waterford.

Ha, small world, this one you refer to is me. I believe we met a few months ago. We got an offer we couldn't refuse and upgraded to a 44DS so were in a different part of Watergate now.

Rapide, I know of you all and I've seen you in the bay a few times. We've had some success in getting pretty good performance from the 379, even with our in mast sail. We should chat sometime. I have found that the rig responds well to fine tuning and that the boat points well as long as you don't over canvas it.

[puravida35]

Apr 23, 2014 14:49:53 GMT garrettw said:

Jan 27, 2014 22:17:09 GMT puravida35 said:

We're neighbors then Rapide, our boat is next door at Watergate. There's a beautiful 379 slipped next to us but I guess that's not you since your at Waterford.

Ha, small world, this one you refer to is me. I believe we met a few months ago. We got an offer we couldn't refuse and upgraded to a 44DS so were in a different part of Watergate now.

Guess that explains why we haven't seen you around lately.  Have fun with your new boat!

[alenka]

Got to agree with 'Garrettw' sail trim can make a big , big difference.

Our last boat was shoal keel and was very quick off the mark but after 8 years she was starting to heel more and more.  A sailor, better than me, quickly pointed out that the sails were past their best and they were no longer the best shape to extract the most from the wind. How old are your sails?

[rapide]

We are still learning. Rapide is our first big boat. Sometimes we are pleasantly surprised and sometimes back to our old ways. But it's fun. Congrats on the new DS.