debenboy
Full Member
Posts: 46
Country: UK
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Post by debenboy on Aug 7, 2012 10:11:44 GMT
The windlass on my 2010 So 36i has given up the ghost.
I have stripped and cleaned the on deck bits and taken the forecabin apart to check the electrics, however I am an electrical dunce.
The fuse is intact and the wiring connections seem clean and dry. The remote connection in the anchor locker shows clean and bright contacts.
Initially when attempting to lower the anchor,[and again later on in my 3hr session trying to fault-find] there was a faint "click" as if a solenoid was closing, but otherwise the whole thing was as dead as a dodo.
The circuit breaker alongside the isolator switches appears to close satisfactorily but it seems to be sealed unit so I have not attacked it yet.
Anybody out there got any ideas?
In passing- in lumpy coditions the remote has a habit of jumping out of its stowage and burying itself on top of the anchor chain. However I cannot see any outward signs of damage or water penetration.
And finally--although I have cleaned the deckside bits each winter, the alloy top cowl which takes the winch handle to lock/unlock the cones or to use the winch manually, is so coorroded it is showing pinholes, and will need replacing this winter.
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Post by Zanshin on Aug 7, 2012 12:07:49 GMT
The relay is probably shot. I had the same problem twice so far. The first time I could repair it myself (I had the same error picture with a "click" sound but the switch inside the unit was blocked from moving by corrosion), but the second time I had to get a new relay. Have you used a multimeter to see if you have voltage between the relay contacts on the remote?
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Post by tedp on Aug 7, 2012 13:09:44 GMT
I once had a similar problem with a starter motor on a car. This proved to be due to a defective rivet connection in the main power circuit between the relay and the motor. The huge current drawn by this kind of unit will create a transition resistance and stall the motor.
Try tapping the windlass housing with a hammer when you hear the relay click. If the motor starts turning it is a transition resistance problem. How to repair it is another question however...
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Post by rc sail on Aug 7, 2012 16:20:57 GMT
I expect you may have a maxi fuse in line wih the 12v+ dc to the windlass. Suggest pulling the fuse and clean the fuse "legs" and fuse holder contacts. May be just some corrosion within this fuse not allowing a full voltage to the windless. Just had a similar 12V issue to my auto pilot computer. Good luck.
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Post by krawall on Aug 8, 2012 1:07:01 GMT
I had a shot circuit breaker! (the one between the battery switches / aft cabin). Got a replacement covered by warranty. I identified it by checking the voltage in the fore cabin which has dropped. Obviously, I attacked the relay in the fore cabin first, this is a lot of work (or at least more work than just measuring the voltage before and after the breaker ). If this is the problem, a replacement will fix it, or you can try to clean it as others have suggested, if you can open it. They are not easy to find though and not very cheap. I guess anyhow the voltmeter is your friend. I doubt it's the windlass itself. But easy to test by shorting / bypassing the relay in the fore cabin.
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debenboy
Full Member
Posts: 46
Country: UK
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Post by debenboy on Aug 8, 2012 9:32:33 GMT
Thanks guys for all your input.
Looking at the setup below decks underneath the windlass in the forecabin, there is an automotive style 20/30A relay[similar to but smaller than the one controlling the charging into the domestic batteries back by the battery bank] and a solid state unit I had assumed to be the switchgear for the windlass where the leads are marked "up" [2 leads] and "down"[single lead].
I have checked the automotive type relay by unplugging it and removing the cover and it looks absolutely pristine.
Have I correctly identified the relevant bits?
I guess time with a multimeter is going to be necessary.
BTW I also had a problem with domestic battery charging earlier in the year and it turned out to be the solid state "pre" relay behind the alternator that was corroded due to the presence of large quantites of oil and water in the casing. I guess Jean-Claude had an off day when installing my engine and harness!
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Post by shiook on Aug 9, 2012 14:36:56 GMT
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Post by Mistroma on Dec 14, 2012 22:19:26 GMT
I had a very similar experience when 42DS was 2 years old. It had been blowing and I had all the chain down (typical). I also started by looking at everything at the bows as mentioned in another post. I was also getting 13.6V or similar going to the motor. However, I eventually discovered that but the current flow was neglible when trying to operate the windlass. The circuit breaker in the aft cabin wasn't working. I opened it up and managed to get it working long enough to raise the anchor. I made up a temporary Aluminium by-pass link to act as a fuse and connected that as needed until back home. I had a great deal of trouble getting an exact replacement in UK. ETA8345F01AU0T128213 8345: Type No. for ETA breaker F: flange mounting, with round aperture with mounting nut M3 0: Without barrier 1: Single pole protected A: All poles with standard toggle (i.e. Actuator type) U: Stud terminals M6 = 125 A 0: without (i.e. Terminal hardware doesn't come with nuts) T1: Long delay DC 282813: ? CD80V I finally found that the Carling C-Series is an excellent substitute. The locating screws aren't in exactly the same position. However, they are close enough if the panel holes are widened slightly (only 0.1mm difference). It also had a better delay curve that prevented accidental trips. Carling replacement: CA1B0168106D2? C: Series A: Handle, one per pole 1: Single pole B: Series Trip (Current) 0: Without auxilliary/alarm switch 16: DC long delay (36 is long delay AC & DC) 810: 100A 6: Stud M6 threaded D or U: Actuator legend black with white On/Off (U is short toggle) 2: Mounting barriers i.e. M3 screws (2,B or D) ?: Agency approval
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moodybod
Full Member
Sun Odyssey 45 Performance WILD DREAM
Posts: 47
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Post by moodybod on Dec 15, 2012 10:28:30 GMT
Ours gave up at 3 years old. First the down failed then the up soon after. Lots of head scratching and prodding with the multimeter. Turned out to be the remote. It was stowed cable up/head down by a ring/hook system and water had run into the cable entry. On stripping the unit the circuit board etc was green and beyond repair. The new remote is stowed in a bracket, cable down and though the warranty states the unit should not be opened I stripped and applied silicon grease to all the internal parts before fitting. I also now remove the remote for the winter months and make sure the plug/socket is well greased and protected by the blanking plug. So far no further problems.
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Post by igalbald on Feb 4, 2013 18:44:38 GMT
I have a windlass H1012 (1000W 12V DC). I just bought the boat and found that fuse (Circuit breaker) is broken. I also notice it is only 63A while my user manual claim tjhat absorption under no-laod condition for my windlass is 66A. I am looking for a Circuit breaker that will work in my boat with the windlass. The issue I am facing is choosing the Circuit breaker amperage. Should it be 100 or less for windlass H1012? Can any one advice? Thank you
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Post by Mistroma on Feb 4, 2013 22:16:05 GMT
See my note above regarding the breaker problem that I had. All my manuals are still on the boat (>1000nm from home) so I can't check details.
I'm pretty certain the 42DS came with a 1000W Quick windlass but don't have the model number.
I found that there were 2 important points wrt breaker specs.
1) Tripping current : Mine is 100A and I used that because Jeanneau had fitted a 100A trip as standard. I later fond that Quick recommended 80A.
2) Trip delay: Different kit behaves in a variety of ways but I found that the original ETA breaker sometimes tripped in use. I think that it couldn't take the surges. The C-series I fitted had a much better delay curve and handled surges much better. I haven't had any problems with the unit I mentioned.
I checked Quick's suggested breaker sizes for a couple of models: 80A Quick Antares 1000W (I think that I have the AT1012) 80A Quick Aster 1000W
So it looks as if a 1000W motor needs an 80A breaker. Not certain why Jeanneau fitted 100A to my 42DS. It didn't seem to be oversized as it did sometimes trip on heavy use.
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Post by panamech on Feb 21, 2013 16:32:06 GMT
Not to sound too basic but ,the basic high tension cables and connections from the batterys should all be removed cleaned,and treated with some kind of Corrosion Inhibitor. I've had basic Ground problems on 4 boats this week, including, Starting,charging, Windlass, and Generators. Good luck, let us know the outcome..
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Post by panamech on Feb 21, 2013 16:34:11 GMT
Just to add, I repaired a Quick Eagle 1400 yesterday....small world....
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Post by sailabroad on Aug 11, 2014 8:32:44 GMT
Related to the topic: Does anyone have any experience with a "Quick Antares windlass 1000W" failure? We have used it solidly for just 1 year - so I'm a little surprised that it's dead already? (no longer under warranty)
After it failed I discovered that the ETA hydraulic-magnetic circuit breaker is dead - so it didn't trip it just died Weirdly? there's still 12 Volts on the dead side ..so it just that it won't pass enough current!!? - Investigating
When I replaced this circuit breaker the windlass worked fine for another day and then it died again killing the second (80 Euro) breaker - So I suspect the windlass motor is killing them. The relay "contactor unit" and remote still work correctly.
The batteries seem fine voltage wise - I guess I should test them under load?
I pulled apart windlass and measured (1) the resistance between windings @ 180 degrees and (2)windings to earth - all open-circuit and(3) between adjacent windings - all the resistances were very low and so my cheap meter couldn't distinguish between a short circuit and the winding resistance - which I would expect to be very low considering they are 1000 Watt windings - does anyone know if this is a correct assumption? Also there's NO sign of water or corrosion...Hmm...what happens to all the graphite floating around from wear to the brushes?
I also checked the windlass gear box manually - it turns with little resistance - so I don't think it's locking up and blowing the circuit breaker.( but I should spin it for a while in case something is loose in there)
Any other ideas anyone? Thanks for any suggestions, we're kinda marooned until I can find a 'Quick' ;~ solution
Oh just another thought - If my relay is oscillating due to a bad contact - or just in general use from to the huge inductive load of the Windlass - Whats soaking up the Back EMF? I don't see anything in the circuit that would suppress the high voltage spikes that are surely being generated?
I guess that could be a reason why the circuit breaker was destroyed and didn't trip? Hmm could stick my meter over it set on AC and check if I get spikes...
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Post by ianpowolny on Aug 11, 2014 15:01:35 GMT
Our Quick windlass stopped working last year and we used a set of car jump leads across the solenoid to operate the winch. The leads get very hot so you need to wear thick gloves to do this. Later we found out that the electrical connections behind the anchor locker bulkhead where the remote connects had rotted away. An electrician replaced the stab connector and all works fine now. I spoke to Quick and they seem to be designing a different connector as this is a known problem to them. Ian
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Post by sailbleu on Aug 15, 2014 10:08:25 GMT
My two cents in this old topic , but maybe still worth reading to prevent being ripped when on location and relying on repair service in a foreign country. Something like , " sorry sir but the windlass engine is gone and you will need a replacement but since a new motor is not available you will be needing a new windlass all togheter " . With respect to honest repair guys/ companies , ... But that usally happens.
Anyway , now my recent story . Some time ago my Leroy Somer windlass (out of production and hardly any spareparts for sale) , turned funny on me.. Next to the fact that this manufacturer found it possible to put an alu drum on a stainless steel shaft ( not friends those two see my topic in the h&h section) and next to the fact that last year i had to dismantle the windlass to get the clogged sand and salt between the shaft and deckthrough out , the electrical motor was completely blocked by it after 6 winter months on the hard. These windlasses do not have a good reputation as you might notice , but hey , its on there so you use it. Now to continue to tell you the recent woes , sometimes the up button refused initiating the windlass , pushing the down button briefly solved the up-problem , which i found very strange at the time. Sometimes it was the down button that caused the faillure , so the up came to the resque. No doubt a problem with the remote control i hear some say , but that remote had been giving me some headache in the past (water seeping in the housing , wornout microswitch and all , last year i decided to add extra up/down switches built into the deck next to the windlass , the types with the cover cap you know what i mean. Both remote controls had the same problem , so the prob was elsewhere. My first tought was the relays , maybe corroded contact , it would deal with that very soon , as soon as i had some anchor time for that. But then , a few weeks ago the windlass stopped working completely. Period. I wanted to make sure it was the relay not the electrical engine and kept my fingers crossed it was the relay. After some voltage readings the disappointment kicked in , after pressing the up and dow remote switch and hearing the solenoid click i still had 13,5 volts on the electrical engine contacts. Obviously not a relay problem but an engine fault , figures of what that would cost me ran through my head , not just that , where to get a replacement in Porto Vecchio Corsica ? But there is something like causality , the previous up - down switch problems and now the complete stop of the electrical engine could point out to a well known defect for this type of motor , ......... Yep , carbon brushes ! After removing the end cap of the motor the carbon brushes part was in my hand , together with piles of carbon dust. Worn brushes (and therefor less pressure to keep the brushes down )with carbon dust in between the brushes and relatee housing prevented some brushes to touch the commutator. Wasn't that the same problem i had with my autopilot ,....yes it was , and after some cleaning my windlass is working again , be it with the understanding that the carbon brushes are in replacement. But i've bought some time now.
Regards
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Post by electricmonk on Aug 27, 2014 15:21:48 GMT
AT LAST! Sailbleu , CARBON BRUSHES! these would be the first thing I would check if there is a click -the click means something is trying to work, the lack of further noise means something is not working. In my humble experience the car/truck starter motors that are pressed into service for windlasses and bow thrusters are not well prepared for marine use. In a very short period of time the brushes stick in their holders and the armatures burn - net result motor wont run. Happily the solution is usually cheap and easy, the last time I had to service my bow thruster it had similar symptoms, the hardest job was persuading my wife to part with a packet of emery boards (the ones coated with sand not emery) to clean the armature without having to remove it from the motor. Obviously if you find the armature burnt and the brushes are stuck and it still wont run then look for flat batteries, solenoids that don't work etc, but stuck brushes are by far the most common problem - along with flat batteries in my humble experience.
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Post by jeremyr on Mar 4, 2016 2:12:00 GMT
The windlass circuit breaker failed on our 45DS, as did one of the winch breakers. I see that multiple other owners have posted similar breaker failures on this board (in just this one thread). I disassembled my failed breaker and tracked down the root cause; it's a mechanical design issue combined with a mounting/assembly problem.
The studs on the back of the breaker are not designed to take much torque. They are hollow threaded rods crimped to a skinny electrically conductive core. If you apply too much torque (which is in fact, very little) the threaded exterior of the stud breaks free from its internal core. At that point onwards, the electrical connection between the thread stud and the underlying electrical post inside of it begins to degrade. As it expands/contracts with temperature changes and vibrates, the surface between interior of the stud and the skinny electrical post inside of it develops an oxide layer. Initially the connection is fine but over time it degrades and you get tiny electrical arcs at the hidden interface as the load turns on and off. Eventually (anywhere from hours to several years in the future), the contact area becomes so degraded and high resistance that the breaker will no longer pass enough current to run the motor. In the two cases I had, one of them failed with an obvious open (0v on the output of the breaker), the other had just enough micro-contact for it to show 12v with no load, but it dropped to 0v the moment one tried to run the motor. One of my two breakers failed 8 years after initial factory installation. I suspect Sailabrod's repeat failure was due to inadvertent over-torquing of the replacement, causing failure within a few uses.
The reason I say part of the problem is a mounting/assembly issue is that if one follows proper/ideal installation procedure they will not put significant torque on the stud.The breaker has a backing nut on the stud. Proper assembly is to place the wire's lug on top of that nut, add a lock washer and another nut, and spin the nut down finger tight. Then you are supposed to put a wrench on the backing nut and tighten using the two wrenches so that there is zero net torque on the stud. The problem is that the way Jeanneau mounted the breaker it is extremely difficult to get a wrench on the backing nut. This makes it extremely likely that someone will apply excessive torque to the stud. In my book, all three parties are guilty, the manufacturer of the breaker (E-T-A of Germany), Jeaneau, and whoever mis-tightened the nut.
The accessibility of the backing nuts on the winch breakers is even worse than the windlass one.
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