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Post by electricmonk on Jan 13, 2013 13:18:52 GMT
The following is going to sound really daft but please bear with me.
Do you have an inmast reefing mainsail?
IF Yes then the following may give you a few ideas if no don't read any further.
In 2000 we took delivery of a new SO37 with in mast furling, first time out the VHF failed as the main sail was unfurled. It transpired that the friction of the sail against the mast produced an incredible static voltage - in the mast - that back fed into the VHF and blew the output transistor.
Was fixed with diodes and earth straps
Just a thought
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Vivacité
Junior Member
SO 409 - Vivacit
Posts: 17
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Post by Vivacité on Jan 15, 2013 17:53:46 GMT
Nope, do NOT have the In Mast Furling system, very much appreciate the reply.
Kahuna, same here, my fuel tank wire is disconnected. The factory's announcement to me: all the problem boats are in the Pacific Northwest (but not the Vancouver, Canada region). The Factory "can't replicate our problem."
I HAVE TOO MANY ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS! ALL STILL PERSIST SINCE DAY I TOOK DELIVERY OVER A YEAR AGO.
15 months of ownership, these problems surfaced the day I took delivery. 11 repair attempts by the dealer. Beneteau Group Marion, "BGM" not returning my emails. Haven't heard from them in over two months.
Not happy with Customer Service from BGM.
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Post by holger on Aug 7, 2014 7:34:01 GMT
Hi Vivacite,
we bought in 2012 also an 409 in Germany and faced the exact same problems as you described above from the delivery on.
We are fighting these problems since 2.5 years so far, but without any success. We are at court for about 1.5 years, but jeanneau resp. the dealer where we bought the so 409 did not do anything to repair this, not even inspected it ;-((. They just say it is caused by the faulty operation by myself.
Any details via personal mail, for those who are interested.
Are your problems fixed in the meantime? How were they fixed? Do you have any further details on this?
Thanks Best Regards Holger
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Post by SV Ivy on Aug 13, 2014 14:21:27 GMT
I've had some of the issues you describe on my Jeanneau 439 2012:
Faintly glowing lights on the panel for things that were switched off.
Large DC voltage fluctuations and low voltage alarms for both engine and domestic batteries.
Glowing "Glow" rocker switch in cockpit when engine battery is turned off. Turn the engine battery on and the glow disappears.
Wind speed reading disappearing completely (not this is not the same as the wind disappearing which happens also but I don't blame Jeanneau for that).
Solar charger giving low battery warnings every 30 minutes in the middle of the night. The Xentrex unit I had installed separately because I didn't trust the panel seemed happy with the battery levels. No way to shutdown the solar charger <25% battery warning except to run the engine in the middle of a quiet mooring field (which I decided not to do).
The problems seem not to be as severe after I set the refrigerator to the lowest setting and only use the electric winches from trimming on heavy days. But they still persist, even after motoring for 12 hours straight (no wind day) battery alarms will start going off at the mooring even with minimal electrical use (refrigerator only with a block of ice in the refrigerator), no lights, no nav.
It varies which problem shows up and some I have only seen once, but low voltage is the most consistent. The electric winches can use up to 120 Amps per second although according to my Xentrex recordings they average about 40-50 Amps per second. I had my batteries load tests and they came out to be in good condition with about 330 Amp Hours.
So I'm curious if you folks have found a resolution to these problems?
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Post by rene460 on Aug 15, 2014 13:32:33 GMT
Hi SV Ivy,
I am with those who suggest that you are looking for one or more earth faults, in particular, a high resistance connection in one or more of your earth connections. It will take some tedious but systematic detective work to track it down, especially to the extent that it seems a little intermittent. I would suggest corrosion under a connector, possibly not visible without actually disconnecting and looking at the contact surfaces. More likely to occur when a connection is made using different metals. Possibly moisture due to humidity or condensation helps it conduct a bit better sometimes. You could also be looking for an unintended cross connection between the engine system and your house system to cause that engine light to glow when the engine battery is switched off.
I assume that you have read all the previous posts on the thread, where there are several good suggestions for tracking it down. I tend to favour a long wire connected to the battery negative terminal to enable use a low range on a digital voltmeter to look for points on the negative side of components that are more than about 0.5 V positive relative to the battery terminal when the component is switched on. Ideally there should be no voltage rise between the terminal and the negative side of any device, but real wires usually have a little resistance so 0.5 V is possible. More than about 1 or 2 Volts and you have found the circuit which includes your fault at one of its connections, and more than enough to upset your battery monitors. This method tends to be more sensitive than trying to measure resistance. Others have suggested something similar earlier in the thread.
Are you sure that the solar regulator does not have programming provision to disable the beep warning? After all, it is not telling you anything useful. Silence is usually better.
rene460
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Post by SV Ivy on Aug 15, 2014 18:52:39 GMT
Yes I'm planning to take out the voltmeter the next time this happens (assuming it's not in the middle of a squall like last time). And yes I was just too tired to remember that the solar charger has an on/off switch right on the panel (just not where it was beeping).
Was just curious to see if people had found a resolution to their problems so I could hopefully start looking there.
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kahuna409
New Member
SO 409 "Kahuna"
Posts: 6
Country: USA
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Post by kahuna409 on Jun 14, 2015 14:42:45 GMT
It has been a while since I checked in here and thought I would add to the discussion. The dealer here in puget sound determined the problem has to do with RF interference. We have a lot of military communication towers and radio towers in certain areas that appears to cause the problem. This is why no problems in most areas and a persistent problem in others. They minimized the issue by installing a shielded, twisted pair cable from the fuel gauge sending unit to the electrical panel. We still have minor battery voltage meter fluctuations when in the affected areas but no alarms or crazy wind speed readings. The other option I was considering was to put a manual shut off switch of some sort on the fuel gauge sending wire. So long as the voltage meter fluctuations don't cause alarms, I'm good.
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Atty
New Member
Posts: 4
Jeanneau Model: 45DS 2010
Yacht Name: Strange Attractor
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Post by Atty on Jul 6, 2016 4:28:22 GMT
kahuna409 Vivacité I have a 2010 45DS which was originally commissioned in Kemah, TX and is experiencing the same problems: * Flickering leds for steaming and deck flood, but not anchor * Erratic voltage readings on the display; the voltage on the rear of the panel is stable * Odd readings (155kt, or 0kt) for wind speed I am also in the PNW but did not see this until venturing to the South Sound, specifically Swantown and Quartermaster. Disconnecting the fuel sender solved the erratic voltages but not the flickering leds; disconnecting both lights at the foot of the mast did but that's not really an option. Did you get a proper fix for this?
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Post by Trevor on Jul 6, 2016 7:29:29 GMT
Hello,
After following this thread I really feel for the owners with the problems. These are difficult issues to resolve. I was interested in the comment about RF interference as that does make sense to me. It particularly makes sense when Atty said disconnecting the wires at the base of the mast stopped the LEDs flickering. That sounds like classic RF interference to me.
When I installed an HF radio in our SO42DS, the extension switch panel I installed and the original Jeanneau switch panel LEDs, lit up like a Christmas tree when transmitting. I had to bypass those LEDs for RF signals so they would not rectify the RF signal, conduct and hence light up.
If you put a 0.1 uFd capacitor across the LED, that may resolve your issue. Simply go into your local electronics store and ask for a number of " Point one microfarad capacitors", meaning the item is a capacitor and the value is "point one of a microfarad". Solder the capacitors across the LEDs and that will make them immune to RF interference. The capacitors are not polarised so they can be connected either way around and they simply are in parallel with the LED. These things come in various types but pretty well any type will do but for the sake of completeness ask for a "disc ceramic" type if it is asked. The voltage rating of the capacitor will not be an issue as they only have to handle 12 volts and nearly all are rated at a higher voltage than this. A disc ceramic, 0.1 ufd capacitor is a little round disc with two leads coming out of it. The disc will be about 6mm in diameter.
I hope this helps. Eliminating RF interference is an interesting challenge - try the capacitors and see if it works.
Regards,
Trevor
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Post by northshoresteve on Sept 2, 2016 5:57:31 GMT
Hello all!
I have taken delivery of a 2016 409 in April of 2016 in Vancouver, B.C. and have been experiencing wild voltage fluctuations on both the engine and house batteries despite the fact that the house battery is suppose to be completely isolated.
One thing that I will add is that Jeanneau wires their house batteries incorrectly. There are 4 house batteries and both the positive and negative leads are connected directly to the first battery and then and second, third and fourth batteries are simply connected in parallel. Connecting the batteries this way creates an imbalanced load and if you don't check your batteries often enough, you will find that the first battery is really low, the second has a bit more than the first, the third has a bit more than the third and so on. House batteries should be wired so that the positive lead goes to the first battery (or visa versa) and the negative lead goes to the fourth battery. This way the batteries are working as one big battery instead of using just the first battery and having the first battery 'boosted' by the second, the second by the third and so on. I had the dealer rectify this however, the panel problem continues.
The dealer recently replaced the panel meter and surprise, no change. Another 409 at my dock (a 2012 model) had the same problem as well and they tried to blame his solar panels (I have none). Don't believe that Vancouver does not have this problem and Vancouver also has essentially no military traffic so I wouldn't think that the military has anything to do with it.
I think one of the previous posts read that the engine and house batteries negative terminals are connected to the same bus. If the engine battery is suppose to be completely isolated, I'm curious if sharing a common ground has anything to do with the fluctuations.
I'll update if I find a solution and would welcome any other ideas.
Thank!
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Post by northshoresteve on Oct 14, 2016 17:46:24 GMT
Good news! I think I've solved the problem. There is a shunt behind the electrical panel where the terminal from the negative lead from the batteries arrives. The nut securing it the negative lead was loose. It has been tightened and everything appears to be working well!
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 14, 2016 19:37:16 GMT
Good news! I think I've solved the problem. There is a shunt behind the electrical panel where the terminal from the negative lead from the batteries arrives. The nut securing it the negative lead was loose. It has been tightened and everything appears to be working well! Excellent, shame it happened of course, but glad you found it.
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Post by sitara on Oct 14, 2016 22:03:47 GMT
Northshoresteve said "The dealer recently replaced the panel meter and surprise, no change."
Often its the simple things not the complicated ones that go wrong. My Cristec battery isolator appeared to be dead and the dealer replaced it with a new one under warranty, it too did not work! There was a wiring fault in the initial installation and all was perfect when this was rectified.
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Post by Trevor on Oct 16, 2016 9:01:50 GMT
Do we know if Vivacité or Kahuna409 ever had the faults resolved and if so, what it finally was?
Trevor
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Post by l33mcc on Oct 16, 2016 22:04:56 GMT
The boat I am on at the moment isn't jeanneau but a lagoon cat, but it has many of the exact same problems described in this thread so I will add my piece. I'm a marine engineer by trade and my knowledge of boat electrics is pretty good. The problems described, or mainly the backlit led lights when switches are off and certain circuits working intermittent is exactly what I'm faced with on this boat. My instincts telling me a short circuit somewhere and not a faulty panel (as someone above had their dealer try) I am about to separate circuits one by one hopefully to find a culprit but...today I noticed that the motion of the boat itself caused the LEDs to light up then disappear again, the motion being exactly like fluid=water. I am now working on the assumption that I have water somewhere that it shouldn't be and giving me a bad earth. The fact that several circuits are affected at the same time makes me think its at a common grounding point or close by, water in the bilge near a buzz bar or similar, the boat bilge is usually cobweb dry but the way the leds acted was definitely with the (very gentle) rocking of the boat on the water. Its a cat so doesn't list, I will come back and let you all know what I find but just thought I'd get this on here in case it helps anyone else or in case anyone else can help me after reading this.
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Post by Trevor on Oct 18, 2016 7:51:26 GMT
Hello l33mcc,
This is typical of radio frequency interference.
When the LED lights are off, they are not connected to any DC voltage source. With no DC voltage source they have no power to light.
Now assume that the LEDs have long leads that connect them or a part of the circuit to another part of the boat. Those long leads can act like an antenna and if a strong RF field is close or close enough to provide some RF energy to those cables, that RF energy is applied to the LEDs. The LEDs are Light Emitting Diodes. Let's forget about the Light Emitting bit for a second and concentrate on the diode bit. A diode conducts current one way and not the other. The RF field alternates at the frequency of the RF signal. For one half the cycle it travels one way, for the other half the cycle it travels the other way. The diode conducts one way and not the other. Now back to the light emitting bit. When it does conduct, the diode lights up depending upon the current induced by the RF field. The frequency of the RF field is high so the light looks like it is continuously on.
If you take a LED and put it on the table in front of you I guarantee it will not spontaneous light. Put a long lead on both the leads of the LED and it may just light up without being connected to anything because it takes very little energy to make a LED emit light. This is a classic case of RF interference and maybe what you are experiencing.
As I wrote in a previous post on this thread, if you want to prove the point, put a small size capacitor across the LED leads and if the LED goes out, it is an RF interference problem. A capacitor conducts the RF signal but doesn't conduct DC current. That means the LED is effectively bypassed for the RF signal as that current flows through the capacitor but the circuit is not changed for the normal DC voltage when the LED is supposed to light.
I have seen this on my yacht when using my HF radio. It is not a fault as such, just a case of a high RF field causing slightly unusual behaviour in the LEDs. If the LEDs were conventional incandescent bulbs, you probably wouldn't see any issue at all.
Regards,
Trevor
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Post by l33mcc on Oct 20, 2016 17:22:24 GMT
Hi again, I do agree Trevor in part butbut the whole circuits go down, consumers stop working., cabin lights dim, turn on the f/w pump and nothing yet all the LEDs across about 4 different circuits light up e.g. mast lights, 12v outlets, nav lights all not working yet some things do still function e.g. confort items, bilge pump port side (but not stbd), a really odd affair I promise. The reason I came on here is I know the panel from working on jeanneau and benetteau single hulls in the past, same panel. I found a spaghetti like wire loom under fwd port bunk and had a play with the many connections in that and the problem has gone now. I haven't any wiring diagrams but assume its all the 12v supply to mast, nav and deck items. There is a coax antenna cable with the loom but I'm sure it was withing the connector blocks, like said, boat ship shape again but thanks anyway. It was a problem that almost had me pulling hair out.
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Post by Trevor on Oct 21, 2016 5:08:26 GMT
Hello I33mcc,
I am sorry as I didn't realise that many systems really didn't work. I thought you were simply worried that LEDs were lighting without any apparent reason.
That needs a systematic fault finding process. I suggest targeting one fault at a time and hoping to find a common thread.
Regards,
Trevor
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Post by wazapng on Jul 22, 2019 13:01:39 GMT
kahuna409 Vivacité I have a 2010 45DS which was originally commissioned in Kemah, TX and is experiencing the same problems: * Flickering leds for steaming and deck flood, but not anchor * Erratic voltage readings on the display; the voltage on the rear of the panel is stable * Odd readings (155kt, or 0kt) for wind speed I am also in the PNW but did not see this until venturing to the South Sound, specifically Swantown and Quartermaster. Disconnecting the fuel sender solved the erratic voltages but not the flickering leds; disconnecting both lights at the foot of the mast did but that's not really an option. Did you get a proper fix for this? Did you ever get a fix? I just started having the erratic voltage readings, water tanks stopped reading. I disconnected the fuel sender and all is good again (except the fuel gauge of course).
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