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Post by lateron on Oct 28, 2011 13:48:46 GMT
Thanks again Ted.......I shall make sure that when I fill up next time I pay 100% then I have the opportunity to come across the North Sea. My SO 32 uses so little diesel cos I usually am able to sail everywhere that it might be a while. Just had a lovely sail to Bradwell and back in glorious weather last week, best sail of the year. I believe you went to Bradwell last year when we nearly bumped into each other at Chathem! Anyway bye for now, Ron. May be in touch again if and when I decide to go for it [ June probably]
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Post by tedp on Oct 28, 2011 16:35:30 GMT
My pleasure.
Actually it was last June we went to Chatham and Bradwell. But it seems a year ago. We ran into another SO32 in Ramsgate on the way back but it cannot have been you. Bradwell is OK, it's quiet and very rural. There is a good pub next to the harbour but the nearest village shop is 20 minutes walking away. Hope you had a good time. I fetched my boat to its winter berth ashore last week, also taking advantage of the good weather.
Good luck next year, if in doubt drop me a line.
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Post by Mistroma on Nov 7, 2011 23:48:42 GMT
I was thinking of going to the Baltic next year but might visit France & Spain instead. Seems like a lot of hassle getting past Belgium & Holland. I used to go over regularly before we joined the EU and Customs were miles better over there than ones in UK in those days.
I noticed a few comments to the effect that UK should have switched to white diesel instead of red. I did read lots elsewhere about adverse affects on marine engines (higher FAME & Bio-fuel content in road fuel). However, I seem to remember that these things would increase in red diesel eventually. So that might not be too significant in the red/white issue over time.
The main problem in Scotland is the difficulty in getting anything except red diesel in many areas. Most harbours have a tank to deliver thousands of litres to fishing boats. They won't fit a second tank to supply the odd yacht with a few litres of white fuel.
There are marinas in the Clyde and around Oban and they could switch to white fuel. But that leaves huge areas where it would be difficult to get fuel if red diesel wasn't allowed.
I expect marinas would hate to sell white diesel considering how much they charge for red. I know that even small fishing boats still pay less than 70p/litre so that only equates to around £1/litre for 60:40 split.
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Post by lateron on Nov 8, 2011 10:05:10 GMT
Hi Mistroma.............yes the RYA said the same as you re the availability of white diesel in Scotland. Wish I could get it for £1 a litre , in my marina it was £1.35 last time I paid even with 60/40 split applied. I think the point that people make about any harm to marine diesels using white needs to be checked against evidence, otherwise surely all those EU boaters using white diesel would be having problems but according to Tedp and Sailbleu they are not.
Anyway I keep being told that a compromise/solution is on the way so let's hope. Bye Ron
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Post by ianqv on Feb 21, 2012 21:10:34 GMT
For those who don't also visit YBW... this is the latest situation!! Bloody great! All yachtsmen using red diesel outside Home Waters will be breaking the law from April 1st. The Treasury has ruled that dyed diesel can only be used by pleasure craft within the UK's 12 mile territorial limit from that date.Yachtsmen will also have to fill in a declaration form pledging that their voyage will not take them into International Waters. The move comes after Yachting Monthly's March issue new story in which we reported that Belgium will fine all yachtsmen with red diesel in their tanks or even in their engine filters. As far as the European Commission is concerned the UK is in breach of an EU marking directive. Today a spokesman for HMRC said the move had come after talks with the Treasury, the European Commission, marine industry chiefs, and the RYA.He said the new rule was a 'compromise' which he hoped the EC would accept as they still feel that red diesel use by leisure craft is still illegal even in UK waters. Gus Lewis Head of Government Affairs for the RYA, has made it clear to the HMRC that restricting the use of marked ‘red' diesel to UK waters would not be acceptable. Mr Lewis, said: 'There is nothing in the Government's proposals that would actually make the use of marked ‘red' diesel for propelling a private pleasure craft outside UK waters unlawful. However, what it is attempting to do is to make recreational boaters sign a declaration acknowledging a legal situation that doesn't exist under UK law. 'We have had a very positive working relationship with HMRC, which has worked hard over the years to accommodate recreational boating interests. However, the RYA cannot support this proposed amendment to the Hydrocarbon Oils Duties Act 1979. I have been in contact with HMRC today about the consultation documents and will keep boaters informed of progress.'
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Post by sailbleu on Feb 22, 2012 16:15:32 GMT
Oh boy , what a compromise. All of this has nothing to do with red or white diesel. It's just a love - hate (or is it the other way around) relation-thing between Europe and the UK. I can imagin this must be so frustrating for UK skippers wanting to come over to the mainland and having a good time. Like us (me) enjoying a visit to your lovely coasts. A political game played above our heads , no doubt.
I'm sorry , ......I really don't want to get political , but the (some ?) UK leaders - and the RYA as an extension - should make up their mind , or you comply with EU regulation , or you dont and go your own way ,.......all the way. How contradictionairy can it be to have one foot in the EU and kicking the hell out of it with the other. Again , I'm sorry , I have really no intention to offend anyone , but lets get serious .
Kind regards.
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Post by tedp on Feb 23, 2012 16:09:25 GMT
It has really become a farce, hasn't it? As long as white diesel is practically unavailable in British marinas, where does that leave a yachtsman who comes into a British harbour with his fuel tank two-thirds empty? Making a sea crossing without adequate fuel is the last thing I would do, and filling up at a marina pump will make you break the law. Now do I have to take a jerrycan to a road fuel station a few miles up the road, walking the distance about 10 times to be able to fill my tank, or what?
I sent an email message to Belgian customs asking for directions on this matter. Dutch customs said it was OK to provide a fuel receipt indicating all duty had been paid in full, i.e. the 60/40 rule is not acknowledged. But that was last summer, I wonder if anything has changed.
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Post by lateron on Feb 25, 2012 11:44:22 GMT
Hi ........I too have been scratching my head over this issue...again! As I originally said in my first post on this thread I think the UK should have bitten the bullet and gone the white diesel way albeit at some significant costs. But now where are we? So much for freedom of the sea. What does it matter what colour the diesel is as long as the FULL tax has been paid on it.[ forget 60/40 split]. Why can't that be acceptable to the EU. At least that would get us all out of the mess we're in. Intransigence on both sides has got us nowhere. If I want to bring customs duty payable goods into UK I pay the duty on it why can't the same happen with the red diesel,treat it like an import and pay a reasonable duty per litre on it when we go to EU countries. I seem to remember some very weird EU mandates about sausages this is another one!! And I'm sorry but it isn't just the fault of the UK it's bureaucrats who have lost sight of reality. Regards Ron
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Post by tedp on Feb 27, 2012 20:25:49 GMT
Just had a reply from Belgian customs who basically said it wasn't a Belgian problem and I should apply to the UK authorities or the European Union. They are of course right as it is the UK who won't comply with EU law (sorry, having my Continental hat on!). But it doesn't make life easy on us individual yachtsmen and I think it's a bit unfair to get at us over an international political problem. Here is part of their reply: If any red fuel markers are found in the tank, this can be seen as a violation of the law.
Finally we would like to remark that in all member states of the EU, sailing with 'marked' diesel oil will also be seen as a transgression of article 3 of Directive 95/60/EU of 27 November 1995 regarding the marking of diesel oil and kerosine for fiscal purposes.I wrote a polite reply stating this would put anyone who needs to fuel his vessel in a UK port in a difficult position. Furthermore I sent them a copy of the letter the European Commission wrote to the RYA (see link below) and asked them to reply to this. We will see what comes of it. www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/cruising/Web%20Documents/Boating%20Abroad/EUCommLetterandTrans30Sept08.pdf
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Post by MartyB on Feb 27, 2012 21:38:33 GMT
I'm glad I am not over there! This is one hell of a sticky mess you folks are in. At least here in NA< red is no road tax paid, white/greenish in color, road tax's paid. any and ALL other taxes to be paid, ie sales or equal, are paid at the pump, so either color, at the end of the day, tax's are paid appropriately. If you get to NA, you will more than likely have red fuel put in your tank as it appears in the UK, as red is considered for off road, home fuel, boats, etc.
Marty
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Post by ianqv on Feb 27, 2012 23:20:25 GMT
Hi Ted p Thanks for posting. Please do keep us updated with their replies. I so hope this is sorted out! We have now scrapped our two week sail to Holland, instead we are going to venture up the East coast. Regards Ian Just had a reply from Belgian customs who basically said it wasn't a Belgian problem and I should apply to the UK authorities or the European Union. They are of course right as it is the UK who won't comply with EU law (sorry, having my Continental hat on!). But it doesn't make life easy on us individual yachtsmen and I think it's a bit unfair to get at us over an international political problem. Here is part of their reply: If any red fuel markers are found in the tank, this can be seen as a violation of the law.
Finally we would like to remark that in all member states of the EU, sailing with 'marked' diesel oil will also be seen as a transgression of article 3 of Directive 95/60/EU of 27 November 1995 regarding the marking of diesel oil and kerosine for fiscal purposes.I wrote a polite reply stating this would put anyone who needs to fuel his vessel in a UK port in a difficult position. Furthermore I sent them a copy of the letter the European Commission wrote to the RYA (see link below) and asked them to reply to this. We will see what comes of it. www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/cruising/Web%20Documents/Boating%20Abroad/EUCommLetterandTrans30Sept08.pdf
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Post by tedp on Feb 28, 2012 4:54:39 GMT
After my email exchange with Belgian customs (made easy because I speak the same language) I also decided to contact the European Commission in Brussels about this. I sent the following request to the Taxation and Customs Union of the EC:
In EU countries the use of marked fuel (a.k.a. 'red' diesel fuel) in private yachts is considered illegal. Customs authorities may impose a fine on any yacht skipper who is found to have traces of red diesel in his fuel tank. In consequence, in most countries the diesel fuel sold for private use in harbours is of the unmarked variety, on which one pays the full amount of duty.
The exception is the United Kingdom where only 'marked' or red diesel is sold in harbours. So far the UK has failed to comply with EU law in this respect. Any yachting skipper who needs to fuel his boat in a British harbour will therefore be sold red diesel fuel. This will result in trouble for the skipper concerned on entering a French, Belgian or Dutch harbour, if he is subjected to a Customs search.
There has been a letter (D(2006)/15295 of 30 Sept 2008) from the EC to the Royal Yachting Association in Britain on this subject effectively stating that it is legal to acquire red diesel fuel in the UK if it is carried in the fuel tank of the vessel, if the owner can prove that full duty has been paid.
Despite this EC statement there are said to be repeated occurrences of national Customs authorities imposing fines in contradiction of this policy - despite the owner of the vessel proving all duty has been paid, he will still be fined. There is much disquiet in the yachting community, reflected in discussion in magazines and social media on Internet.
As a yachtsman occasionally visiting Britain I have been in touch with Dutch customs about this matter and they state they will accept proof in the form of a sales receipt showing the amount of duty paid in Britain. Recent e-mail contact with Belgian Customs however indicates they don't see this as a Belgian problem but refer this to DG TAXUD. I haven't yet been in touch over this issue with German and French Customs but I expect similar problems may arise there.
I interpret this as a risk for individual yachtsmen still to be fined, for a problem that is not of their making. The trouble given to private EU citizens is disproportionate - they have no choice but to obtain red diesel fuel in British ports as there is no unmarked diesel fuel available. Sailing at sea without an adequate supply of engine fuel is unsafe, so they are compelled to fuel their boat before crossing to the Continent. Yachtsmen are put in an impossible position.
I therefore request some sort of action to be taken by the EC, compelling national Customs authorities to accept proof of full duty having been paid on fuel, even if the tank of a private vessel contains traces of marked diesel fuel.
I would be obliged if you would state the EC's policy on this matter and reaffirm the EC's 2008 letter I mentioned above. This can be found in PDF format on the Royal Yachting Association's website. If necessary I can send you a copy by email.
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Post by MalcolmP on Feb 28, 2012 9:31:01 GMT
This is becoming a real mess and one that I am personally frustrated that the RYA who I have supported for almost 20 years has not helped UK yachtsmen at all, seems we now have the worst of all worlds. the 60/40 split for heating allowance to me always seemed like an crude avoidance system. What is most complicated whilst I am prepared to pay for white diesel - this cannot be obtained in Marinas and you cant use fuel for cars as it has bio-diesel additives that can wreck Yanmars at a cost far higher than the cost of several seasons extra duty
I have just had the following from the Cruising Association that suggests lobbying our MP's and responding to a new daft proposal by HMRC:
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Post by tedp on Feb 28, 2012 13:37:22 GMT
Thanks, Webcrew, for clarifying the situation that now arises as a result of changes to UK law. This morning I had a reply from the Belgian Customs authorities in the Ghent district which I think deals with the North Sea ports. Their reasons for non-acceptance of the former directive as given by the EC in 2008 are that the proof given by any boat owner by showing the fuel station receipt isn't water tight. The traces of red diesel found in the tank can equally come from fuel obtained without paying the duty. So they automatically assume that any red diesel found in a boat's tank is illegal and is a reason for prosecution. I include the text of their latest reply in Dutch/Flemish for anyone to protest to the UK authorities as this effectively closes Belgian waters to UK yachtsmen. As shown above I have complained with the EC over this issue as I think it puts yachtsmen in an impossible situation.
Here is the text of the email in Dutch:
In België kunnen bij een controle onder meer volgende vragen rijzen: 1/ betreft het aankoopbewijs de rode gasolie die bij controle wordt aangetroffen? 2/ bij controle achteraf van sporen van kleursel: is het gevonden spoor enkel veroorzaakt door de in het Verenigd Koninkrijk aangekochte gasolie? Deze en nog veel meer redenen hebben tot het o.m. VERBOD OM RODE GASOLIE, OF SPOREN ERVAN, VOORHANDEN TE HEBBEN in de brandstoftank. Bij een vastsstelling door de controlerende diensten zal steeds een bekeuringsakte worden opgesteld en elk geschil zal apart worden afgehandeld. Namens de dienst accijnsprocedures Gent
I will investigate the situation in Holland, as the Dutch authorities up to last summer accepted the fuel station receipts as proof if fuelling and distances sailed under engine were properly logged in your ships log. If there is no change over here, it would enable British yachtsmen to cross directly to Holland. But I will try and find out first.
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Post by MalcolmP on Feb 28, 2012 14:20:13 GMT
Thanks TEDP. I have also complained to the RYA today and have asked them to provide a list of marinas and harbours where tax paid white diesel (without bio-diesel additive) can be obtained - they claim it is readily available on the UK South and East coasts.
I have also suggested that they read this thread to see the impact this issue is causing
Might you translate the Flemish reply from Ghent - my autotranslate came up with something along lines of:
In Belgium, in an audit more questions arise: 1 / proof of purchase concerns the red diesel fuel is found in onboard? 2 / to verification of traces of colouring: it is found only trace caused by the diesel fuel purchased in the UK?
These and many more reasons to order PROHIBITION ON RED GAS OIL, OR THEIR TRACES, held in the fuel tank. There is a fixed position by the inspection services that we will always make a fine, a deed will be prepared and any dispute will be handled separately.
On behalf of the service tax procedures Ghent
If I get a list of legitimate UK white diesel fueling locations I will copy it here
thanks
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Post by tedp on Feb 28, 2012 15:44:11 GMT
Well, I have news of the situation in Holland which I will describe below. First the English translation of the Dutch language email sent to me by the Ghent customs district in Belgium. In Belgium, during a Customs inspection, the following questions may arise: 1/ does the invoice (shown by the skipper) reflect (all) the red diesel found during inspection? (--> i.e. how can we be sure there is no other red diesel in the tank on which no duty was paid!) 2/ in case of an inspection at a later moment showing traces of red colouring agent: is this the result of red diesel oil obtained in the UK and no other source?
These, and many more reasons, have led to the PROHIBITION OF RED DIESEL OIL OR TRACES THEREOF IN THE FUEL TANK.
If the inspecting (Customs) agencies find (any of these), prosecution will be the automatic result. Each case will be separately handled. (--> i.e. if they inspect you twice and you are twice found having red diesel in your tank, you're prosecuted twice!)
Written on behalf of the Customs and Excise authority, Ghent district, Belgium.SITUATION IN THE NETHERLANDSI have just spoken to the Customs authorities in this country. They have a different attitude which reflects the practical situation regarding red diesel in UK ports. The same rule they applied last year is still in force, and explicitly will be during this summer: If you pay 100% (propulsion) duty on red diesel loaded on departure from Britain and this is separately printed on the invoice, this, together with the ship's log, may serve as proof that you paid the UK duty on white diesel although your tank is filled with red diesel. This invoice is valid up to 1 year after the date of payment. In other words, the best way to visit this country from Britain is going straight across, avoiding the Belgian coast, unless you managed to fill up with white diesel and there are absolutely no traces of red diesel left in your tank or filters. I can only conclude there is a complete lack of understanding of practicalities on behalf of the Belgian authorities. You have been warned.
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Post by lateron on Apr 13, 2021 14:58:44 GMT
Hi Ted I don't know if you are still on this forum but hope you are. By the way I did get to Belgium and France without being fined though now that crazy thing Brexit has happened so !!!
Any way this is not about red diesel.
I noticed you had replied to some one with a leaking galley mixer tap saying just replace the tap and I was going to replace mine which is leaking but it is very tight behind the sink. I think I've found a replacement tap.
Any advice as to how to proceed would be welcomed. Can it be done from on top?
Best wishes Ron
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Post by Don Reaves on Apr 13, 2021 18:13:58 GMT
Hi Ted I don't know if you are still on this forum but hope you are. By the way I did get to Belgium and France without being fined though now that crazy thing Brexit has happened so !!! Any way this is not about red diesel. I noticed you had replied to some one with a leaking galley mixer tap saying just replace the tap and I was going to replace mine which is leaking but it is very tight behind the sink. I think I've found a replacement tap. Any advice as to how to proceed would be welcomed. Can it be done from on top? Best wishes Ron It seems Ted is no longer active on the forum. He was last online in Feburary 2019.
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Post by lateron on Apr 14, 2021 14:48:42 GMT
Hi Don, Thanks for your reply. Shame Tedp has left. Best wishes Ron
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Post by dslittle on Apr 19, 2021 9:50:54 GMT
I noticed you had replied to some one with a leaking galley mixer tap saying just replace the tap and I was going to replace mine which is leaking but it is very tight behind the sink. I think I've found a replacement tap. Any advice as to how to proceed would be welcomed. Can it be done from on top? Best wishes Ron We also had a leaking tap. After numerous conversations with the Jeanneau dealer, it seems that Jeanneau could not provide any other information other than the fact that the tap was Italian... This meant that it was impossible to identify the cartridge and we had to buy a new tap!!! Luckily, Brita were doing a promotion on their taps and water filters which included ‘free’ fitting. After a bit of head scratching, they agreed that fitting the tap on a yacht was no harder than putting one in someone’s kitchen and duly obliged. I was there during the fitting and it was no harder than working under a kitchen sink. The original tap was only a couple of years old so the fittings came apart easily (with the right tools...). Possibly not a lot of help for you but it can be done.
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Post by so32foot on Apr 19, 2021 17:13:35 GMT
Hi Don, Thanks for your reply. Shame Tedp has left. Best wishes Ron
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