New Sails for 36i

[pshelts]

I am looking to purchase a new set of sails for my 36i. i am thinking of asking North sails in the uk. Does anyone have any experience of them? I want a set to do some local club racing with.

Any other advice?

Thanks

Paul

[MartyB]

What type of sails are you looking for? Granted club racing.......
You can go with a string style ie Norths 3Dl, Ullmans Fiberpath, UK's tape drive......I have an Ullman 155 FP, main is a UK TD. Both work well, locally here in Pugetsound of Washington state. the Ullman/UK seem to have fewer issues with delaminating when the sails are done.

If you want better than dacron, but similar cost. Ullman has a CAL, a panel sewn laminate, I have a 140 that I use for daysailing, upon occasion racing when the 110 is too small, 155 too big.

There are some radial cut laminates that are in between the cost of the CAL/dacron and the string styles, that some boats locally are doing well with too. The dacron/mylar options at least locally, are only being used by cruisers. racers still seem to use dacron, or an actual laminate.

I will not quote how the lofts them selves are in the UK as that is a 12 hr plane ride over the north pole from me!

Marty

[flightdeck]

wow pshelts, when I saw your post I thought what a can of worms, just like anchor debates and yet only Marty has replied, all of the East coast must be on Irene alert and the EU out sailing.
Sail shape is King no doubt = speed = sailing pleasure.
What I look for in a new sail is:
Who designed it
Where is the sail build
What is the back up service like
My sailmaker tick's all the right box's, I could not deal with an ex-sailor turned sales person with monthly budget targets.
Talk materials and needs with them, what sail's do they use, why, do some leg work and pump them for info, you would not buy a pair of $50 shoes without trying them on, why spend $1000's just on a name.
My choice for sail material is GPL have just replaced our headsail, can't wait to save up more $'s for a main. GPL, may be overkill, but long term has to be the winner specially as sail shape keeps us "flat" a common problem we all have. Cost vs long term sail shape, GPL win's in my book's. On cost quality dacron $2000, kevlar $2500, GPL $3000, looks bad for GPL but think long term sail pleasure. Lucky I only have small sails on my SO32.
It's a sailboat needs the best "engine's" we can get.

Hmmmm did I open that can of worm's

Cheers

[MartyB]

Flightdeck hit the nail,
ie the sail shape, hence why most of my sails are laminates. They do not stretch as much as a dacron based sail, cost as he points out is pretty close. The CAL 140 for me was the same as Ullmans Dacron 140 at about $1800USD IRRC. I'm a bit smaller boat wise than him. Granted the FP 155 was 3K or there about.......

GPL is another option now that it is mentioned that has been recomended for a replacement 110 for my dac/mylar north norlam that is pretty well blown out after 5 hard yrs racing etc in some higher winds. A true laminate IMHO for just a bit more would have been a better deal. Be it a CAL, GPL or string style from ANY manufacture.

If you can do a lamnate, you will be IMHO a bit better off, or get the BEST dacron you can!

Marty

[davideso37]

Paul,

I had to look up GPL on the internet and find it is the Dimension Polyant carbon laminate. I have two genoas made from the Flex Aramide line from DP which is the grade just below the GPL in cost or the one above it on the web site. These are the 105% blade genoa and a new 135% No 2. Both have sections of taffeta for durability but the main reason for the selection was good shape holding. We have an older 160% Pen laminate which we use below 15knots and it has proven to be a very economical and practical cloth choice. We would have saved only a very small weight going to the carbon equivalent. I also have a 150% Norlam Genoa. It was a very nice shape but I have been very disappointed with the differential shrinkage of the cloth. Where the sail was covered with UV protection it has maintained its dimension and shrunk elsewhere resulting in a very loose leach. We now use a sail bag pulled up over the furled headsail and dispense with UV covering.
Our fully battened Dacron North main is four years old and has kept its shape well and should last a few more years. The Leach overlaps the backstay about 120 mm and is about as big as I want. Any more overlap and tacking it through the gap in light airs becomes a problem. Being dacron it folds into the boom bag easily.
The laminates do need more care with folding than the Dacron but they will keep their shape for much longer and could be lighter depending on the application.
Regards
David

[dublin]

I looked at changing my sails last year. Went to Southampton boat show and met the manufacturers who had stands there. I came away more confused than I went. My intention was to change to laminates but the basic story was that with proper care they would be perfect I.e. Hold their shape, for 4 years at the end of that period they would "fall apart" and have to be replaced. In other words they are perfect or useless. As a non racer I could not justify the cost which was about gbp5,000 for main and genoa. But I did not want to go with new Dacron as it would only be a small improvement over my old sails which are still reasonably serviceable. So I am still with my old sails and even more confused about fabric.

[maby]

Aug 30, 2011 15:25:43 GMT dublin said:

I looked at changing my sails last year. Went to Southampton boat show and met the manufacturers who had stands there. I came away more confused than I went. My intention was to change to laminates but the basic story was that with proper care they would be perfect I.e. Hold their shape, for 4 years at the end of that period they would "fall apart" and have to be replaced. In other words they are perfect or useless. As a non racer I could not justify the cost which was about gbp5,000 for main and genoa. But I did not want to go with new Dacron as it would only be a small improvement over my old sails which are still reasonably serviceable. So I am still with my old sails and even more confused about fabric.

There was a fairly detailed article in PBO last year that reported pretty much the same - laminates are expensive and buy you an extra knot for two or three years after which they are fit only for the scrap bin. Good if you are a dedicated racer, but otherwise not worth it.

[dublin]

UK Halsey have a downloadable program on their website into which you can load photos of your sails when they are trimmed and fully loaded. The program then shows the draft etc of the sails and allows you to see if your sails are still holding adequate shape. When I used it with photos of my sails they still looked reasonable shape etc. Worth playing with

[flightdeck]

Bad Habits where are you, you have laminated sail's on your 36i.
I think you have to put laminated sail in 2 group's, and before some lawyer jumps at me these are just my thoughts.....that I'm sharing.
1st group, 3DL, Doyle Stratus, D4, Tape drive that style of sails.
2nd group, tri-radial sails using laminated fabric, we can add the Flex which is made in panels.
1st group may have a 3-5 year life before a "blow" out and there are reason's for that.
2nd group is what I think of as proved technology using better cloth, starting from Pentax to Kevlar to Carbon and I think for anybody who wants a sail long term + long term shape, group 2 is where to look.
I see my old boat at times with now 5 year old Kevlar Flex sail's and they look good still.
For my new head sail I went for a tri-radial using GPL from DP with a single side internal taffeta and will go same way for the main once the $$ have been saved. I'm looking for boat handling as the wind pick's up and sail life, a little more care is needed in the sail handling, but as most of us furl and pack on the boom it's mainly at the time of dropping the main to keep it straight and hard fold free.
Last note, we use our sail's 12 months of the year (sorry to rub it in) that has to be taken in to consideration as well on sail life.

Cheers

[MartyB]

FD,

How about a group three laminate, ie the dacron/mylar types like the North Norlam. Like David, I have found my norlam to not hold up as well as told it would! My sting sails frankly have more hours/tacks etc than the norlam, with way more shape still left etc.

I will also agree with FD, re putting a taffeta on one or both sides of the what I call true laminates, or his 1 and 2 versions, this seems to help them hold up a bit longer than with out. I have taffeta on both sides of the ullman fiberpath 155, and my UK TD main. If I have to do the 155 again, I may go one sided on the taffeta. the main I would do both!

Right now, my hopefully next sail purchase will be a full sized spin and a 80-85% foretriangle HS for the really windy days! GPL or the spectra equal is right now my first inclination.

marty

[davideso37]

Flightdeck,

I am in agreement with your comments and add a few points about the amount of use we get from the sails. We sail 75 days of the year so our Dacron main has had a fair workout. The next most used sail is the 160% pen laminate which is used about 50% of the time. It is about 3 years old and I think we will get another three years out of her. The 105% and 135% Flex aramide sails get less use and with care these should last 10 years. When we cruise we change to the dacron on norlam genoas because sail shape is less critical and we want to protect the laminate sails from too much UV. We generally leave the last genoa we have used on the roller furler and cover it with a bag for airing and UV protection. So far we have not had a mildew problem with any of the sails.
Our biggest problem has been UV deterioration of the leach tape on the genoas that had UV protection strips. The leach tapes lasted less than 3 years and this was one of the factors that prompted us to invest in a sock to cover the genoas and do away with UV covers on the individual sails. We also get a fair bit of UV deterioration in the stitching of the boom bag for the main. I have had it resewn and also get to it with the needle and palm at the first sign of of stitching failure.
David

[flightdeck]

Well easy to see sails mean a great deal to some of us and less to others. I have done same as you David on the new head sail, no UV tape but a sock we hoist up using the spinnaker halyard, my plan is to leave the new sail on even for cruising.
pshelts has any of this helped you, we almost forgot where it all started from, as you can see we all lean towards laminated, no point having a V8 running on 6 pot's

Cheers

[MartyB]

For the two of you with out the UV tape, I'm SWAG'ing here......but does the sail with out hold its shape better than an equal one in the same size as with?

I do not have an RF on my boat, I have the Harken foil. I could see how a sock installed over the furled sail could be a better sacrificial option vs having something sewed to the individual sails, especially if you have more than one HSail!

[flightdeck]

Hi Marty, at this stage, as the sail is all new, I can only say that my sailmaker was very pleased with my choice of UV protection, I will get some picture's for the show and tell.
Marty today is friday for me and it looks like tomorrow for you will be a good day too....LOL

Cheers

[MartyB]

I like the friday is looking good!, still about 3 hrs away, a 3 day holiday weekend for us.......weather looks sunny reasonably warm, winds in the 10-15 range.........

Look forward to pics,

Along with it will be interesting to see what the OP decides to do, or if our blathering is sinking in, doing nothing........

Marty

[dublin]

I had a sock on a SO 32. The issues were :
It had to be loose to hoist up over the furled sail. If left loose it flapped in any wind other than light resulting in tears and rips. The way to prevent this is to fit a cross over line which could be pulled tight from deck level to tighten the sock around the sail. However, there was no way of loosening this line to take the sock down. So pulling the sock down was a difficult job as it had to work it's way loose as it came down I.e. The top section was narrower than the middle and lower parts of the furled sail so it had to loosen to come down. However it did protect the sail very well. The issue above re taking it down gets worse the longer the foil. A friend got one on a 49 and after the first few attempts I don't think he ever uses it as the friction taking it down it so great it is a major job.
I has a sock on a smaller boat prior to this and it worked a treat but it becomes progressively more of a problem as the headsail get bigger and longer.

[davideso37]

Dublin,
Everything you say is right but a well made sock addresses all these issues. It needs to be a parallel tube to pass over the thickest section of the furled genoa and it has to have a draw string to pull it tight otherwise the flapping will drive you nuts. Mine has a set of eyelets through which a very good quality Liros waxed Dyneema cord is threaded. I use the spinnaker halyard to haul up the sock and actually attach the snapshackle to the top of the Dyneema cord so that you get a nice straight pull. Our I measurement is 14.25 and I think the sock would be good up to 18metres.
We have 4 headsails we use for social racing so the sock is a good solution for us.
Regards
David

[MalcolmP]

Sept 2, 2011 13:23:17 GMT davideso37 said:

........ very good quality Liros waxed Dyneema cord......

This sounds interesting as I have found the same problem as Dublin trying to use a sock on our 39i. If the cross over braids are hauled tight it is then really hard to loosen to retrieve the sock - I have resorted to using a boat hook and standing on the pulpit !

Even when the cord are tight I have also found the extra weight resulted in some pumping of the mast in strong winds in the Marina which I was not too happy about

In fact gave up trying to use it and have left the genny to takes its punishment with only the standard UV strip that Quantum fitted as standard.

I gave done a quick google for waxed dyneema - seems to be sold for power kites - what diameter do you use and where did you get it?

Thx Malcolm

[dublin]

A problem which seemscto go unheeded is theveffect on the main.
Most drop into a bag in the lazy jacks which them
N zips up over the Bain.
The zip on top of the bag is not waterproof and the ran seeps in over tme. If t boat is downwind of a city the rain contains acidic impurities which will destroy th main. The solution is to either fit a bag which is separate from the lazy jack system which is put on after the nainsook is lowered and zips on the bottom or else have a cover fitted over the zip system which keeps th rain out. These are the recommendations of McWilliams sails

Of course an inapt furling system can give much th same protection !!!!!!!

[davideso37]

Malcolm,
Liros Waxed Dyneema core 3mm. Expensive but good. I buy it by the roll.
My genoa sock has brass eyes and the rope we use slips through the eyes easily.
As mentioned earlier I have attached the halyard to the lacing cord and get a nice straight pull up the one side of the genoa. That stopped quite a bit of friction as the sock just hangs loose until we tension the cord. I can lead the halyard forward and pull the sock up unaided although it is easier with the crew hauling it up so I can keep the loose end of the sock straight. It comes down a treat.
David

[MalcolmP]

Thanks David, I will try to track some down here in the UK

Malcolm

[debenboy]

I had new sails from Parker & Kay this spring [ main & No 1 in tr-radial cruising laminates, crosscut No 3 in top quality dacron and A5 asssymetric] and made a conscious decision not to have sacrificial UV leech covers, but to have a sock.
The sock has worked fine once I got my single-handed hoisting technique sorted and stopped wrecking the teeth on the zip![That happened twice as well as losing the spinny halyard up the mast once]
The lanyards run through small plastic shackles with rollers in the jaws thus reducing friction enormously. The roller shackles are inserted in the usual brass eyelets.

[pshelts]

Guys, many thanks for all the comments, they have been very useful. I feel armed to go to the southampton boat show next week with more thoughts than before. I am still leaning to the group 2 laminates.

I have also had a discussion around going for a jib rather than a fruling genoa but not sure i want the hassle of hanking sails on when cruising! Another can of worms!

[MartyB]

To race reasonably competitively, you will probably need more than one jib/genoa frankly. As neither a reefed jib nor main is 100% efficient. If you can sail with a full main and a 110, it is faster than a reefed main and say a 150 rolled to a 135, Or a full main and a 150 rolled to a 110!

You might be better off with a 155 and 110 in non furling full hoist with out the RF on, and a 135 RF jib for cruising and daysailing.

Marty

[davideso37]

Marty,
I agree to race competitively you need a 155, a 135 and a 110. We like to keep the chosen sail for the day on the furler for ease of handling. To not lose too much sail area we have lowered the furler drum as close to the deck as possible. We would not get a lot of extra sail area on our large 160% by tacking the clew to the deck. Also there is a trade off between deck sweeping genoas and ones with higher clews. I like to keep the clew at cabin height so we can barber haul the clew in when we need the height and this style of genoa is easier to skirt over the guard rails. Once you get to the 110% the extra sail area in not needed unless you have a yacht with only a 110% headsail.
Now if I was doing overnight racing when the conditions might change several times during the race then I might mount the same sails off the deck and not on the furler. For all other situations the furler is so convenient and avoids damage to the sails. Also the larger the yacht the more convenient it is to have the genoa on the furler.
The optimum solution is going to be a very personal decision based on the quality of the crew and the type of racing intended.
Regards
Davaid