martti
Full Member
SO 29.2 - Silver Girl
Posts: 43
Country: Finland
|
Post by martti on Nov 17, 2011 18:13:12 GMT
Hello
There seem to be now several threads of traveler questions, but didn't found way to continue discussion. Therefore this new.
My topic would be do-it-yourself post-installation traveler comparing boomvang line to cockpit.
Specially (and in my case) traveler would be installed between seats, which make width about 76 cm (30 inc). And I'm wondering would this width make any good ?
Any thoughts about why traveler and why boomvang ? And this specially in strong wind condition, where point is to loose main sail, but try to keep it flat.
Br,
-Martti
|
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Nov 18, 2011 3:54:46 GMT
If currently all you have is a single point, the the amount you are talking is better than what you have. IIRC you have an so29.x?!?!?!?! Do you have the ability to span not only the distance between the seats, but on to the seat itself? than the length should double the 76cm to 150cm or so potentially. My Arcadia the traveler is right behind the cabin going across the whole cockpit. Then again, it was designed that way. You might have to use some wood wedges on the seats and tall track for the crossing. There is a fellow in my YC that did this to a mid 70's Cal he has.
The boom vang line to the back of the cabin top is an easy thing to do with a deck organizer and a new clutch. 1-2 hour job depending upon the how to get to things in the cabin area. While doing this, think about other lines you might want to come back too, like reefs, outhaul, cunningham and do them at the same time while access is available.
Marty
|
|
|
|
Post by tedp on Nov 18, 2011 11:58:06 GMT
I fitted a powered-up boom vang to my SO32 and it makes little difference. See photo:  The leverage arm on the boom can be calculated as the vertical distance between the boom and the lower vang block on the mast - about 4ft. If you use a traveller the distance is measured from the mast to the traveller rail. This is either half the boom length (traveller on the cabin roof) or more (traveller in the cockpit). This means you can put far more tension on the sail to flatten it. A short traveller between the cockpit seats, as far as I know, is all you can do on the 29.2 because of the lift-up seat on the cockpit locker. It seems to work on the SO32. See www.jeanneau-owners.com/hintsandtips/so32mainsheettrack.html The man claims he can sail 5 degrees closer to the wind. An interesting thread on a cabin top mounted traveller on an SO32 is here: jeanneau.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1324 |
|
|
|
Post by davideso37 on Nov 19, 2011 10:54:16 GMT
Martti,
The only purpose of the small traveller in the cockpit is to pull the boom to windward so that you have more height when sailing to windward in light conditions. So you only need a traveller if you are racing seriously. If you want to see how a serious sports boat traveller is set up have a look at the Melges 32 arrangement. Both mainsheet tails, the direct one and the 4:1 fine tune go direct to the centre of the cockpit floor while one fall of the system is on the short floor mounted traveller. The point here is that they rely on the vang for mainsail control when on a reach or run, not on the traveller.
Regards
David
|
|
|
|
Post by tedp on Nov 19, 2011 17:20:54 GMT
Yes, another name for the boom vang is 'kicking strap'. It is really meant to keep the boom down on a reach or a run, not to control sail shape in close hauled conditions.
If you want to control the main when sailing close hauled in gusty conditions, a longer traveller rail is best. I am planning to mount one on the cabin roof, which will produce enough trim range for the mainsail, comparable to a very long traveller rail in the cockpit.
As I wrote in another post, in a traveller fitted boat the first thing I do in a gust is move the traveller to lee - I hardly ever touch the mainsheet. This immediately relieves pressure on the rudder and enables you to keep the course. If that isn't enough, I dump the main as a last resort, but then you're losing control anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by j on Nov 22, 2011 6:48:05 GMT
Yes, another name for the boom vang is 'kicking strap'. It is really meant to keep the boom down on a reach or a run, not to control sail shape in close hauled conditions. It depends on the boat/rig. If you don't already have a good traveller setup it may be simpler and cheaper to improve the vang setup. I suggest a read of this article: When you’re sailing upwind, more vang tension will make your mainsail flatter. That’s because it creates more bend in the mast and boom (See diagram). Be careful you don’t get caught with too much vang in light air or waves.
Many boats use a technique called “vang sheeting” when sailing upwind in a breeze. If you don’t vang sheet, one problem you have is that when you ease your mainsheet in a puff, you allow the leech to twist and you make the mainsail fuller (because less leech tension means less mast bend). This is not good in a puff.
You could prevent this by dropping the traveler to leeward instead of easing the mainsheet. However, on many boats the traveler is not easy to play or it doesn’t have enough range. This leads us to the vang. By using a tight vang (i.e. vang sheeting), you control mainsail twist and shape with the vang. The sheet then controls the lateral position of the boom, which is quicker and easier than using the traveler.
www.sailingbreezes.com/sailing_breezes_current/articles/Aug00/dell0800.htm |
|
|
|
Post by tedp on Nov 22, 2011 10:46:17 GMT
It does indeed depend on the rig. I expect that in racing boats with a highly flexible mast and a fractional rig, the amount of mast bend you can introduce this way is greater. Indeed the article suggests the use in racing boats.
The SO32 and the SO29.2 have a 9/10 rig and a single set of angled spreaders, so I feel the mast cannot be controlled as much as in fractional racing rigs. If I pull on my vang I can see the boom start to curve, but the mast will not curve enough to create a flatter sail. Even the combination with a backstay tensioner has little effect. Others have installed a traveller system on an SO32 and they claim better performance as a result.
I have experimented with a temporary line tied to the end of the boom, hauling this down and to lee in about 12-15 knots of wind, using the spinnaker block on the quarter. This emulates the effect of a traveller put to lee. The result was a flatter sail, and it even made the mainsheet go slack. The effect on speed and pointing was better than using the vang.
|
|
martti
Full Member
SO 29.2 - Silver Girl
Posts: 43
Country: Finland
|
Post by martti on Nov 22, 2011 12:52:30 GMT
<-- Quoting-->
I have experimented with a temporary line tied to the end of the boom, hauling this down and to lee in about 12-15 knots of wind, using the spinnaker block on the quarter. This emulates the effect of a traveler put to lee. The result was a flatter sail, and it even made the mainsheet go slack. The effect on speed and pointing was better than using the vang.
<-- end of quoting-->
I have to look if I can build and try something similar. This could tell more should I install traveler or not. Any additional information would be good even that I can try this only after several month (now winter:).
How did you tighten the additional line - was it in the winch used for spinnaker ?
I think question in my case is effect of short traveler (width only that 76cm), and installing it on top of seats would make impossible to open the hatch to get ropes, etc. needed.
Also question is usability since having traveler off in harbour is important since 29.2 has no extra space.
What would you say about boomvang hoist rate ? Current have 4:1 and I wonder would anyone recommend anything else ?
Thanks
-Martti
|
|
|
|
Post by j on Nov 22, 2011 13:15:09 GMT
It does indeed depend on the rig. I expect that in racing boats with a highly flexible mast and a fractional rig, the amount of mast bend you can introduce this way is greater. Indeed the article suggests the use in racing boats. True, but flattening the sail by bending the mast down low isn't the only reason to use a vang upwind. If you do not have a traveller, or your traveller isn't very good, then the vang can be very useful upwind to stop the boom rising (= fuller main) when easing the sheet (instead of dropping the traveller) in a puff. You'll need alot more than 4:1 to be able to use your vang effectively. |
|
|
|
Post by tedp on Nov 22, 2011 13:54:51 GMT
...How did you tighten the additional line - was it in the winch used for spinnaker ? ... I ran the line from the boom end through a spinnaker sheet block, then on to the sheet winch which on the SO32 is beside the cockpit. The idea came from another Dutch SO32 owner. I'm not sure more hoist rate on the vang like J says would be a good idea as the loads would increase much beyond what is necessary with a traveller arrangement. There is about 1/3 of the leverage of a vertical mainsheet even if it's on a rail on the cabin roof, and in addition the vang is at a 45 degree angle. The load on the vang needed for a similar down vector on the boom would be at least 5 times what is needed on the mainsheet. The problem with a traveller rail on the cockpit seats is the same on the 32 as on the 29.2. However, I know of a Dutch 29.2 owner who made a removable traveller rail in his boat. There is a post on the Dutch Jeanneau forum here: jeanneauforum.nl/forum/modifications/overloop-so-29-2/?PHPSESSID=f0b68657def149ea99f73681329d55e1The first entry has a number of links to photos made of such an arrangement. Perhaps that will give you an idea? |
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Nov 22, 2011 23:46:15 GMT
"IF" the pics from the dutch site are from a 29.2......personally, I would mover the traveler forward of the cockpit seat. Granted you lose what a foot of end boom sheeting, but probably not enough vs losing the cockpit storage area. On my Arcadia very similar in size and shape to a 29.2, the traveler came std just behind the cabin going across the whole cockpit.
I have to admit, having the traveler just in front of the wheel as shown would be nice too! BUT, being as I have a tiller, I have to admit, being forward is a bit nicer.
I use a combo macro/micro 4-1 setup. 4-1 macro, with the micro 4-1 giving me a total of 16-1 when that is used. The micro works well when the wind is up for handling gusts.
Marty
|
|
|
|
Post by lateron on Nov 23, 2011 9:41:49 GMT
Hi ...like tedp I have experimented with a line to the end of the boom acting as temporary mainsheet and my last boat a Hunter Ranger 265 had a central fixed point in the cockpit for the mainsheet which worked well. Consequently I'm in the process of replacing the obsolete cockpit table fitting in my SO32 cockpit with an upper and lower stainless solid fitting with u bolts for the mainsheet to attach to and then I will use 6:1 blocks etc for the purchase down to this central point just in front of the scope of the tiller.
I'm hoping to be able to flatten the sail more and also to have more instant control of the main in gusts. If it doesn't work I'll at least have got rid of the messy table mount and will have some strong clip on points for harnesses, and then I can still also try a short traveller or go back to the roof mounted system. I realise I'll have to watch out for the sheets sweeping the cockpit but I'm used to that.
Regards Ron
|
|
|
|
Post by tedp on Nov 23, 2011 10:41:35 GMT
Marty: personally I'm not very happy with the idea of having something on top of the cockpit locker as shown in the photos. However if you put a rail in front of the locker (which applies to the SO32 as well) the hood may be in the way of the sheet, and in addition you lose seating space under the hood.
Ron: In fact you will be going to something like the standard arrangement on the SO29.2. I agree the SO32 table mount is a bit messy - I'm looking for an alternative as well. It would be a good idea to see if your plan works better than the roof mounted sheet system. I myself will be going for a roof mounted traveller as I don't want the mainsheet in the cockpit anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by davideso37 on Nov 23, 2011 12:29:38 GMT
Just jumping back in with my view that the main purpose for the traveller is to pull the boom into the centreline. Here is a link to a site with some very nice Bakewell White Korean 30 yachts which have a fixed bridle instead of a traveller. The bridle keeps the centreline attachment point for the mainsheet higher up and hence the boom falls away less. The earlier Bakewell White 36 has a mixture of travellers and bridles. I have sailed mainsheet hand on a BW36 using a very wide traveller but one so wide that you never had to dump the mainsheet. On my brothers BW36 they have an adjustable bridle so that if they let it out the boom is effectively centre line sheeted and if they pull the bridle in the boom is effectively sheeted from the floor. They beat the boats with the travellers I am told. A short traveller between the seats will be of little us for dumping the mainsail. A long cabin top one might get there and I have seen some nice looking long ones. My short cabin top variety is not wide enough to use to dump the main without also having to dump the mainsheet so we settle for the mainsheet alone. I would still like to get my boom closer to the centre line and a bridle might do the trick but that is another two strong pad eyes in the cockpit floor and another tripping hazard. Anyway here is the link for those interested www.sail-world.com/Australia/index.cfm?SEID=2&Nid=50996&SRCID=0&ntid=0&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0Regards David |
|
|
|
Post by tedp on Nov 23, 2011 14:04:22 GMT
If you want to keep the boom as much along the centreline of the boat as possible, the bridle idea is a good one. Indeed that is the optimal position advocated by racing specialists. However, the Bakewell boats seem to be very responsive racers probably with a deep keel and much better pointing ability than a mere cruising boat.
A cruising boat, whilst basically subject to the same laws, will have to make compromises in sail trim much earlier as it cannot turn the power in a sail into speed as efficiently as a racer, due to the underwater shape, displacement and the short keel and rudder.
Hauling the boom on my SO32 to luff and down in a blow will only make my boat want to round up more than she already does. The sail is powered up instead of down, the speed of the boat doesn't increase and it doesn't point much higher. All I do is add pressure to the rudder.
However, if I depower the main by reducing the angle of attack on the sail, hauling it down to lee, this is instantly felt as relief to the rudder. The boat doesn't slow down - what I basically do is delay the moment I would need to reef. In a gust therefore I would move the traveller to lee, hauling it back up as the wind eases.
When I rigged a line from the end of the boom towards the lee quarter, this was meant to test the effect of pulling the boom down and to lee. Using a traveller for the purpose is much more convenient.
I have seen a brand new Bavaria 36 rigged with a double mainsheet (not the 'German' system), a separate three-part sheet being rigged from each of the mainsheet ring bolts on the cabin top. They had better boom control by being able to haul it down to lee if the going got rough. The down side however is having to handle two sheets when coming about. There might be some merit in temporarily rigging such a double system to see if it works before you commit yourself to fitting a rail. And you'd need two winches on the cabin top which you don't need for the foresail as in the SO29.2.
|
|
|
|
Post by lateron on Nov 23, 2011 15:32:26 GMT
Ted or anybody...do you think 6:1 is too much purchase for the mainsheet could I get away with 4:1
Cheers Ron
|
|
|
|
Post by tedp on Nov 23, 2011 20:18:45 GMT
I think you should look at the purchase of the standard mainsheet arrangement on the roof, which from the top of my head is 4:1, then see if you can manage to haul it in by hand. If not, add a set of sheaves. 25 square metres is a lot of sail to handle in a blow, by hand.
Exchanging the blocks for ball-bearing ones would help, of course.
|
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Nov 24, 2011 1:23:05 GMT
Ted,
"IF" one has a dodger/Hood to you? having the track forward where mine is, they do get in the way of ea other. I do know of a fellow with a B36.7, when the dodger is up, he uses a cabin top traveler, when racing and the dodger is off, he uses the stock traveler in the cockpit behind the cabin. A the saying goes, if there is a will, there is probably a way!
Ron, re the 6-1......As ted says, if a 4-1 is a bit much, a 6-1 will be easier, or do as I did, put a 4-1 micro on the back loop of the macro, and you have 16-1, which is really easy with my main of about 18 sq Meters, 195sq ft, hoping I did my conversion correctly!
OR, you can go with a 6-1 macro, and a 4-1 micro, giving you 24-1 using the micro, that should be able to handle just about ANY main sail that any of us have in size etc. As Ted pointed out, go with a ball bearing setup which will be easier to haul in and out, along with bigger sheaves makes things easier too, and a smaller size line vs maxed out line diam helps to lesson the drag in the system also.
marty
|
|
|
|
Post by lateron on Nov 24, 2011 9:41:27 GMT
Thanks Marty/Ted...think I'll go walkabout in the marina to get a visual take on this macro/micro system I know some sailing school Jeanneaus have them near to me, sounds like a lot of rope but I shall have a look.
Cheers Ron
|
|
|
|
Post by tedp on Nov 24, 2011 11:06:12 GMT
Having the hood (dodger in American parlance) down would of course foul a rail on the roof. Some people might want to consider that. As I never have the hood down, to me it is of no consequence. An extra rail, or even a heavy putting on the cockpit floor would take account of light weather sailing with the hood down.
A two-stage sheet arrangement (macro/micro) would help if you put the micro tackle on the fixed part of the macro, i.e. between the deadeye of the lower block and the sheet runner attachment. That leaves the running part free to dump the mainsheet, or to haul it in when altering course towards the wind. As the load on the sheet becomes to big to handle, you haul in on the micro.
|
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Nov 24, 2011 17:20:57 GMT
Not sure if these will help......but a couple of pics of my boats setup. 1st is a good view of the track as setup stock, this one I am realizing is flipped, the left is really the right side of the boat, you can see where my cockpit storage locker is on the left, really right side.  This next one is correct in view, but shows the macro/micro sheet block setup. The first one was when I finished up putting a new track, harken traveler onboard. I've since put a longer line on the micro which makes it easier yet to use in windy conditions.  Marty |
|
|
|
Post by tedp on Nov 24, 2011 17:58:29 GMT
The photos are quite clear, Marty - the macro/micro set-up is exactly like I though it would have to be. I like the full width rail - plenty of trim range there. Only your boat has a bridge deck which is better for rail mounting. The SO32 has a low entrance coaming which you don't want to block with a rail at shin height! Does the sheet run clear of the dodger?
|
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Nov 24, 2011 20:22:41 GMT
Ted,
I do not have a dodger. So that is not an issue for me. There is a CS36merlin across from me, A Tony Castro design like mine, same basic traveler, the previous owner did put a 2'ish foot track in front of the wheel in between the seats. Dave says it works......probably not as well as in stock mode tho. The sheets DO get in the way of a dodger/hood.
Probably why so many makes are coming with cabin top travelers these days, so folks can put dodgers up and not have things in the way. What I notice is one can not use the cabin top winch's as well with a dodger etc too. I will say, when it is windy and one is motoring up wind, a dodger would be nice to hide behind. With a tiller and extension, I can get pretty close to the cabin back, a dodger would probably block 98% of the spray that hits me. Sailing, other than rain, I do not get splashed as much.
Then from about march to october, we are racing once every to every other week, one does not get a credit for a dodger making you go slower! With 5-6 folks on board, the lack of dodger makes it easier to move about.
back to putting a main traveler in the cockpit, I could see a removable one potentially just forward of the cockpit storage area, make ir removable per say, and you would have potentially the best of all worlds, assuming it is far enough back so the sheets do not get in the way of a dodger, aft control on the boom for better control, yet the main sheet is in the cockpit, close enough to a wheel so an SH could steer and dump/adjust the main if need be.
Marty
|
|
|
|
Post by tedp on Nov 24, 2011 22:12:15 GMT
Yes, I can see the need of dispensing with a dodger if you race that often. For cruising it is essential to have one for comfort however. And on the SO32 there is enough space under it to wield a winch handle. As to a removable traveller in the cockpit, I had one on my previous 23ft plywood boat, just like you say, just forward of the storage hatches. She was a lovely boat, sailed like a dream but just like a large dinghy with a cabin - very lively indeed, and you kept bumping the traveller with your shins. I always came home black and blue after a rough trip in her.
So we are glad at last we have the cockpit clear of obstacles, and we're bent on keeping it like that!
|
|
|
|
Post by MartyB on Nov 25, 2011 17:17:42 GMT
I'll see if I can ge a picture of the CS traveler later today, need to go put a star on the top of the mast with my sons later today. That might give marti and idea/picture to work with. Another boat local used a piece of wood to cross the bridge deck to put a traveler where mine is vs the cabin top. I do not have access to that dock per say.......
Ted, I would bet the 23'r you had was fun. My step dad built a 21' CB boat in the 70's, sailed that a lot in the lake near us, a few times up in the San Juans, as you said, like a BIG dinghy!
Marty
|
|
