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Post by lateron on Oct 14, 2011 14:16:29 GMT
In my last copy of Yachting Monthly there was another article concerning a British yachtsman being fined £590 by Dutch Customs even though he had the correct receipts from Suffolk Yacht Harbour [my marina] showing he had paid the duty 60/40 split. Dutch Customs said he had not paid the full rate of duty. Where does this leave people like me who want to visit Holland or Belgium and how can I find out from the authorites in those countries as to exactly what they want as proof that the correct duty has been paid. Does anybody on the forum know?
It also begs the question as to why we in the uk insisted on red diesel especially as the price is now virtually the same price as road diesel. Does road diesel indeed cause problems for marine engines and if so why aren't the engines of Dutch boaters having these problems. Comments welcomed............ Ron
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Post by MartyB on Oct 14, 2011 15:11:20 GMT
Not sure about Europe, but here in the states, the ONLY different tween the two is the red dye and the fact that road taxes have not been paid. I run both in my boat, off road rigs ie bobcat/trackhoe etc with no issues in how they run. The problem at least here, is the red stays in the fuel tank for a LONG TIME so it is hard to remove the fact you had it. So if they dip you, you can be 20-50 gals per tank gal ran thru, and still have some of the dye show up!
I picked up a Yachting the other day, not sure if it has THAT article, will check and see and comment more.
Sounds like some of the countries may need to talk to ea other a bit more, or it could get expensive around. IMHO
Marty
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Post by ianqv on Oct 14, 2011 18:59:35 GMT
Hi Lateron,
I'm just down th road in Bradwell. I am also very concerned regarding these IDIOTS charging British sailers because we have LEGALLY used red diesel. It is purely down to GREED on their part! If we use red diesel in OUR country then that is up to us. These countries have not lost out on their precious tax because we purchased it elsewhere. It is their law that red diesel can not be used, it is our LAW that we can.
I was in Ramsgate earlier this year, moored up next to us was a v nice Belgium Motor boater. He had spent two weeks visiting the uk but needed to re-fuel, but he was worried if he did he would be fined. So he was going to attempt to cross back to France on fumes and refuel there! I mean, what the **** is this all about (other than GREED).
I have now scrapped all plans going to these countries until they sort this out. If us Brits all done the same and kicked their greedy economy in the knackers, they'd soon change their tune!!!
I for one would not pay their fines and would challenge them all the way (sorry, but I buck against red tape b****x like that) so best I don't go unitl its sorted out!!! - therefore I will be going elsewhere to spend my money!!
The sooner our inept government sort this out the better!! (sadly they are too busy sorting out equal rights for gay 3 legged hamsters!!).
Rant over... D:)
Ian
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Post by rxc on Oct 14, 2011 20:13:27 GMT
Interesting about the Dutch. I haven't been controlled for fuel so far, just for VAT and customs duty three times. But I am sure it is coming. And given that I bought quite a bit of green (of course) tax free diesel last time I was in Ireland, I am sure that someone will ask about it. I do have all my receipts, but it will be a pain.
The EU is becoming more and more uninviting and inhospitable to boaters.
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Post by lateron on Oct 16, 2011 11:16:50 GMT
Hi ....Iwas hoping some one who lives and sails in Belgium or holland might have had some knowledge of this situation or perhaps be able to tell me who to contact in those countries to try and find a way of complying and not getting a fine.
Also what about the other issue I raised; is white road diesel harmful to marine engines and if so what do Dutch and Belgian boaters do? have they found it is a problem? Or was it hype over here to keep red diesel? Perhaps Tedp might have some info worth sharing on this. And as there is now hardly any difference in price why have we bothered to keep red diesel? Another own goal for the UK !! Very probably.
Cheers Ron
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Post by sailbleu on Oct 16, 2011 12:47:14 GMT
Hi Ron ,
first of all , we all run our engine on white diesel , not harmful what so ever. Secondly , I think your country is breaking a European rule that stipulates that red diesel is not allowed for the private sector. Only (professional) exceptions can or may still use red.
The Dutch customs followed European legislation and it was up to the boater to see that he/she did not filled up his/her boat with red diesel. Unless you come from a non-Europe country as I did this year - Norway - where I filled up with Norwegian low duty diesel (blue, the only one available in the harbour) . Of course I kept all receipts since the color can last several fills.
I find it strange there is no white for sale in the Engish ports , or do you have a choice at the fuell pontoon ?
Kind regards
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Post by lateron on Oct 16, 2011 13:50:31 GMT
Hi Sailbleu.................thanks for that. I couldn't see how white diesel would be harmful but that seems to be the accepted view over here. However according to the RYA our government negotiated an exception clause regarding the use of red diesel by leisure boaters as long as we paid the necessary duty on it which we all have to, and that means it is no cheaper than ordinary diesel now. But it seems that Dutch and Belgian and maybe French Customs are not allowing our use of red diesel even though we have paid the duty on it. So that puts us in a thingy creek without a foresail because the only diesel for sale in all the marinas I know is red diesel. Strange though that may seem it is the situation we are in. We should have just conformed with EU and got rid of red diesel in my view but I know many in the UK will disagree with me. So how do I get to EU in my boat ? even if I emptied all my red out the dye would still be there I am told for years. Do you know any user friendly customs men who might give you another view on all this and maybe how to visit EU places?
By the way did you get my reply regarding your gel coat?
All the best Ron
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Post by electricmonk on Oct 16, 2011 13:54:36 GMT
Hi Ron , first of all , we all run our engine on white diesel , not harmful what so ever. Secondly , I think your country is breaking a European rule that stipulates that red diesel is not allowed for the private sector. Only (professional) exceptions can or may still use red. The Dutch customs followed European legislation and it was up to the boater to see that he/she did not filled up his/her boat with red diesel. Unless you come from a non-Europe country as I did this year - Norway - where I filled up with Norwegian low duty diesel (blue, the only one available in the harbour) . Of course I kept all receipts since the color can last several fills. I find it strange there is no white for sale in the Engish ports , or do you have a choice at the fuell pontoon ? Kind regards 1. White diesel is harmful its just a matter of degree 2. English boaters do not get a choice of diesel its red or nothing 3. Dutch customs are miss interpreting EU law and how it is applied in different parts of the EU. 4. I fill with red diesel in middleberg which I believe is part of Holland
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Post by lateron on Oct 16, 2011 16:27:16 GMT
So electricmonk. have I got it right that... you live/sail in Holland and yet are allowed to use red diesel in Middleberg. If so how do you get on with Dutch authorities regarding having red in your tanks?
My frustration with all this is that I've finally got around to considering a North Sea crossing only to be put off by the likelihood of fines and though I agree that Dutch and Belgian Customs seem to be misinterpreting EU law unfortunately there are growing numbers of fines being slapped on UK sailors. What can we do?
Ron
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Post by sailbleu on Oct 17, 2011 5:06:37 GMT
www.vyf.be/nl/water-info-146.htmRODE DIESEL Wij vernemen van verschillende yachtclubs dat de douane bijzonder actief controles uitvoert naar rode diesel. Onder druk van de RYA besliste UK om nog verder rode diesel te verdelen en een factuur met BTW 40/60 te voorzien, 40% voor verwarming en boordenergie (afzonderlijke diesel) en 60% voor voortstuwing. Bij elke tankbeurt wordt door de pompist gevraagd indien je aan de 100% of voor de 40/60% btw regel wenst gefactureerd te worden. Goed zeemanschap vereist dat men voltankt vooraleer af te varen. In de UK jachthavens kan men enkel rode diesel tanken wat in België als een inbreuk geverbaliseerd wordt. Bijkomend wordt men verplicht binnen de kortste keren zijn tanks te laten kuisen en de brandstoffilters te laten vervangen.. een dure grap. Deze situatie, waarbij de pleziervaarder voor zijn legaal gedrag bestraft wordt, is onaanvaardbaar en werd door de VYF in het Subteam der Kustjachthavens aangeklaagd. Het Subteam kon rekenen op het begrip van Dhr. Cockuyt, Gewestelijk Directeur van Douane en Accijnzen, die inmiddels bij de hoofdadministratie een voorstel heeft ingediend bij vaststelling van aanwezigheid van rode diesel zou men niet meer overgaan tot onmiddellijke inning van de boeteb) wel wordt een dossier opgemaakt waarbij redelijkheid zal getoond worden indien de gezagvoerder het bewijs kan voorleggen dat hij in UK getankt heeft en een factuur kan voorleggen volgens de 100% BTW regel c) de federaties worden op de hoogte gehouden omtrent de genomen beslissingen De VYF adviseert de pleziervaarder het volgende: a) om in UK enkel te tanken mits factuur volgens de 100% btw regel b) de factuur bij te houden en de tankbeurt in het logboek in te schrijven c) nooit een onmiddellijke minnelijke schikking of boete te aanvaarden elke controle te willen meedelen via uw club aan de federatie.De clubs werden verzocht om de controles van hun clubleden te willen verzamelen en deze dan gebundeld door te sturen naar het VYF secretariaat. Meer informatie over deze problematiek kunt u op onze site bij wetgeving vinden (Programmawet inzake diesel voor pleziervaartuigen). This note says it all. I will translate when I have more time. The darkest hour is before the dawn . But apparently they are on the case , and by the way , it's the RYA (royal yachting association that is giving you all the hardship. But: -Only buy 100% VAT diesel -Keep the receipts . -Never pay the fine on the spot and report the incident to VYF (flemish yachting federation) -Note the fuelling up in the logbook. A sollution is on its way. Ron , I did read your respons - many thanks for that- on the gelcoat thing , but I'm looking for a sollution closer to home. Kind regards PS: I know , English on this board , but I hope Malcolm will let this pass as a one time exception
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Post by lateron on Oct 17, 2011 12:02:24 GMT
Thanks sailbleu..my Belgian isn't too good but the odd word here and there seems to suggest paying 100% duty in UK and the other points you've made. Not paying on the spot will surely result in my boat being impounded, again that's what I've heard via RYA and Yachting mags.
Hope you're right and that a solution/compromise will soon be arrived at for example collect the rest of the vat if people haven't paid the full duty.
What a mess, think I'll lobby RYA and my MP!! Cheers Ron
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Post by sailbleu on Oct 17, 2011 16:24:03 GMT
No Ron , your boat will not be impounded
Het Subteam kon rekenen op het begrip van Dhr. Cockuyt, Gewestelijk Directeur van Douane en Accijnzen, die inmiddels bij de hoofdadministratie een voorstel heeft ingediend bij vaststelling van aanwezigheid van rode diesel zou men niet meer overgaan tot onmiddellijke inning van de boete
Cockuyt is the general director of the Belgian customs and duties , and he filed a suggestion (read recommandation ) to the main office telling them not to collect the fine when red diesel is being found on a boat ( comming from the UK mind you) . That means a dossier will be made about the specific violation and you will be able to send along your receipts , logbook copy (picture) and so on. If you have done everything right (paying the duties on the red diesel ) that generally means your dossier will be dismissed.
Again , you will not have to pay the fine and you boat will not confiscated.
Regards
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Post by lateron on Oct 17, 2011 18:11:05 GMT
Thanks Sailbleu for all your advice in this. Maybe common sense is beginning to happen.
Ron
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maby
Full Member
SO33i Vixen
Posts: 44
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Post by maby on Oct 22, 2011 20:20:35 GMT
As I understand it, the root of the problem is that commercial shipping is allowed to use Red Diesel across the whole of the EU, but pleasure boats cannot. In the UK, it is more common for pleasure sailors to fill up on the same pumps as commercial boats and, hence, the UK exemption for us to use Red Diesel.
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Post by tedp on Oct 22, 2011 22:04:45 GMT
The red diesel issue is indeed a pain for yachtsmen. From what I hear the 40/60 rule is not accepted by French, Belgian and Dutch customs officials. Duty must be paid for the full amount of fuel. As far as I can see the reason is on the political level. Customs officers being what they are carry out a policy and they will always try and make you pay for 'tax evasion'. The fines are no joke - they are disproportionately high. They also have little sense of fun but you can always confront them with EU policy. Have you read the following? www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/Pages/reddieselabroad.aspxThere also is a letter from the European Commission to the RYA regarding this issue which should give guidance to any official trying to fine you for having red diesel in your tank: www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/cruising/Web%20Documents/Boating%20Abroad/EUCommLetterandTrans30Sept08.pdf. Shove the letter under their noses if they make trouble. The letter is in English, French, Dutch and German. I have been to England this summer, and I of course had to fill up with red diesel once or twice. Beforehand I had consulted the Netherlands Customs authorities and they told me the following: - When you return to the Continent, fill up the tank with red diesel (best thing is to fill up a nearly empty tank), pay the VAT on 100% propulsion and have the fuel station make out a receipt for it showing the VAT. - keep the receipts in a folder and make sure you keep a ships log showing sailing dates and times and the dates and times you filled the tank. - This will exempt you from being fined up to 12 months after having filled up with red diesel. Even after having filled up with white diesel after returning, I expect there are traces of the red diesel in my boat's tank. If I fill up once or twice more, it will have been diluted far enough so it will have gone by next summer. By the way - white diesel is the same as red diesel except for lacking the colouring agent. It won't harm your engine.
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Post by lateron on Oct 24, 2011 8:30:43 GMT
Thanks Ted.......that has clarified a number of things. I hope to come over next summer and will insist on paying 100% duty. I tried that this year but my marina insisted 60/40 was ok, but then some one filling up in my marina [Suffolk Yacht Harbour] was fined even with receipts for 60/40. The silly thing is paying full duty will make red diesel much more expensive than white diesel from a garage which seems mad to me. UK should have swallowed our pride and followed EU, but then there is the lobby over here which insists white diesel is bad for marine engines. I don't know what their evidence,if any, is. Anyway here's hoping something sensible will happen cos red diesel is all we can fill up with in all of our marinas. I have been in touch with RYA but as yet await an answer, and Ihave printed off their letters. Ron
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Post by sailbleu on Oct 25, 2011 4:53:03 GMT
Ron,
why not fill up with jerrycans. That is what I do . Everytime I get over to the boat for a chore during the winter (when he's on the hard) I take along a few jerrycans. That takes me several rides because untill recent I had about 370 liters of diesel which is far too much for a sailingboat. I now reduced that to 230 L to the benifit of fresh water. Once you get to the mainland , filling up with white in the marinas is not a problem anymore . But mind you , they charge the maximum allowed price , which makes fuelling up with jerrycans more economical. Many do it.
Anyway , the story concerning white diesel that might be harmfull for the engine is wrong in my opinion. Maybe they confuse white diesel with petrol . Petrol is not as greasy as diesel and could damage the pump. But you can add it to white diesel , since it is somewhat cheaper. If my memory serves me right , I think a ratio of 70% diesel and 30 petrol is acceptable. Petrol as you know is not stained , and therefor can not be detected by eye. If they (customs ) run chemical tests you're caught of course.
Petrol also helps you through the anual car inspection you know. During these inspections - in Belgium anyway - the exhaust soot is measured . When its too high the car is rejected , so repairs need to be made. Thats why some clever owners of a somewhat older car add petrol (+/- 20% ) to a nearly empty tank prior the inspection . The results are astonishing, the car passes all the time. After that run the tank as empty as possible and put in some normal white. But not full. Repeat the procedure about 3 times and all petrol residue is gone , giving your car another maintenance free year. Today we can say these practises are unacceptable , since it is a scientific fact soot is responsable for many respiratory diseases , specialy amongst children. I own a clear car by the way. As far as the word " clean " can be used .
Something else about the EU legislation , whenever you filled up red diesel , you have to show the receipts proving your honesty. BUT , afterwards you are obliged to empty and clean your tank , and also to replace the dieselfilter(s). That is how the law sounds like in theory. I guess there is an exception for British yachtsmen no doubt.
Kind regards
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debenboy
Full Member
Posts: 46
Country: UK
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Post by debenboy on Oct 25, 2011 11:07:32 GMT
To a Brit that sounds like suicide, but I guess you are talking about what we call paraffin or Kerosene, NOT "gas".
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Post by sailbleu on Oct 25, 2011 14:14:38 GMT
Yes of course , my mistake. Petrol is for us an abbreviation for petroleum which refers to domestical kerosene for portable heaters and all. Thanks for setting things straight.
Kind regards
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Post by tedp on Oct 26, 2011 0:28:36 GMT
Kerosene (jet fuel) is what they tried in Army trucks for some time over here, until they found out it caused too much wear of the engines. I would forget about it.
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Post by sailbleu on Oct 26, 2011 6:55:45 GMT
Kerosene (jet fuel) is what they tried in Army trucks for some time over here, until they found out it caused too much wear of the engines. I would forget about it. That is exactly what I was trying to make clear , kerosine (petrol :-) ) can be used in a maximum ratio of about 70% white and 30% kerosine without causing damage or wear to the car , or boat for that matter , and making the fuelling up cheaper because kerosine cost less than white. But bear in mind , it can also be traced. Do not use 100% kerosine or the machinary will be sustain severe loss. Maybe , just maybe , some people in the UK confuse kerosine with white diesel creating the myth that this diesel is harmfull. My engine , the MD22L-B , had a pre existence as a UK car (Aston- Montego and Maestro) engine , and they all ran on white no ?! Again , there is no difference between red and white diesel besides the stain and a few innocent chemicals so red can be detected by means of a a test. You can remove the red color you know (charcoal filtering) , but you can not easily remove the chemicals , that would be to expensive. But we are sidetracking now , the essence of the story is , try not to fuel up in the UK as a foreigner , that will prevent alot of discomfort in a later stage. Remember , it's also part of the legislation you have to clean the tank and replace all filters after red has been used. Well,.... you guys keep driving left and stick to the British pound , I guess we (the rest of Europe) can tolerate that silly RYA red diesel fetish aswell. No offence meant. Regards
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Post by lateron on Oct 26, 2011 14:21:59 GMT
Hi Guys.....................just to round off this thread I've had a communication from the RYA stating the obvious that it is risky to go to Belgium /Holland at the moment but that Germany and France don't seem to have a problem with Brits having red in their tanks. He also said the Belgian/Dutch customs were more interested in the colour of your diesel than receipts for duty paid, so where are we? Guess it may be Boulogne rather than Nieuwpoort/ Vlissingen for the time being.
As to filling up with white diesel I did that for a while carrying jerry cans around but apparently the red dye may be in your system for years as a marker. It's all a bit of a pain really, let's hope some common sense is used by the authorities. Meanwhile happy sailing ..........Ron
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Post by tedp on Oct 26, 2011 15:46:24 GMT
This is funny... I had the information first hand after calling the Customs service, back in May. They were a bit offhand to me, but perhaps that's how they are. But the information was very clear. I wouldn't worry too much as long as you have your paperwork in order.
I will phone the Customs service later this week and see what I can make out.
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Post by lateron on Oct 26, 2011 18:54:52 GMT
I will be really interested in what you find out Ted, not sure how close RYA have got their nose to the ground although they're usually pretty good. Let's hope you receive some positive information. I could email you the RYA stuff if I knew how.
Regards Ron
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Post by tedp on Oct 27, 2011 10:48:05 GMT
Just had a telephone conversation with the Netherlands Customs authorities on the diesel duty question. They consulted their own internal information and they confirmed what I wrote before. If you pay 100% duty on red diesel in England and have it formally registered on the invoice, they will not fine you up to 12 months afterwards if red diesel is found in your tank. Of course they may object if the invoice is only for a small amount of diesel and your tank is full. I asked them what to do if they make trouble for you despite you having done your paperwork. You have to pay the fine first, then write a complaint, including a copy of the invoice and other relevant paperwork. The address can be found here: www.douane.nl/contact/. If you inquire for guidance by telephone they will answer you in English.
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