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Post by tedp on Apr 25, 2012 20:17:02 GMT
My SO32 came fitted with a Raymarine ST4000+ tiller pilot that from day zero wasn't quite happy. It was slow, the auto tack feature worked only to port and it wasn't very good at course keeping. Last year on our trip to England the power started to fail once or twice when giving full rudder on the pilot. This was traced to a faulty connector on the power relay feeding the instruments (the Tridata and wind instruments are fed through a Seatalk cable, from the autopilot), and repaired. Last week, when running under engine fresh from the winter storage site, I connected the tiller drive and put the autopilot on 'auto'. The boat went violently to starboard and when I had finally put her back on course, all the instruments were dead. The 15amp fuse in the power circuit had blown. After replacing the fuse when in harbour, I reconnected the tiller drive and started experimenting. It went all over the place and blew another fuse. Out came all the stuff and I brought it to a repair firm who it seems had their hands full so they didn't do a thing despite promising to ring me back last Monday. So I got the pilot and accessories back from them after paying an 'investigation fee'. Meanwhile, from a fellow Jeanneau skipper, I had obtained another (used) ST4000+ control panel which I installed this morning. Having done the set-up I took the boat out and did the compass calibration turns. That completed, all seemed to work OK. So I tested the auto tack feature, and on the second try, the instruments went dead again. The fuse had blown again. Now the tiller drive was suspect, so I took it home and tested the (unloaded) current draw, which proved to be about 8amps. This should be about 2amps, so I took the unit apart. The motor smelt of burnt insulation, so badly I that put it outside.  www.009dutch.nl/jeanneau/569_25_04_12_4_08_17.jpeg www.009dutch.nl/jeanneau/569_25_04_12_6_37_24.jpegOn the Web I found a yacht electronics specialist in England who proved to have motors for this particular unit, which supposedly aren't supported anymore by Raymarine (the funny thing is the same unit is used in the SPX-5 pilot). Their part number on a repair manual I found is Q114. I had ordered a motor at 67 pounds, before some wag pointed out to me that the same motor (type RS-555 SH) is made by Mabuchi and costs only a few Euros.... A new tiller drive for the SPX-5 is sold by Raymarine for about 600 Euros, by the way. I thought it useful to point that out...  |
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Post by MartyB on Apr 27, 2012 3:33:56 GMT
So is the ST 4000 the OLD version of the SPX-5? I had been toying with an ST-2000....the SPX5 is about double, altho with out the control head, it is about $200 more than an st2000. WOnder if one NEEDS the control head?
Marty
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Post by Anwen (Deep Joy) on Apr 27, 2012 19:51:28 GMT
The SPX-5 has more bits than the ST-4000, in that there is a box which contains the electronics as well as the control head and the actuator. The box of tricks includes a gyro system which responds to the rate of change of deviation, making the autohelm more accurate than the ST4000. I had a wheel version of the ST4000 which failed with similar symptoms to Ted's and I replaced it with an SPX-5, which has been pretty much bulletproof so far. The control head for the SPX-5 doesn't have any of the computer electronics in it, so it is different from the the ST4000 head.
Hope you get the motor sorted out Ted - my ST4000 failed less than a week before our summer cruise, so I didn't have time to investigate and repair!
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Post by tedp on Apr 28, 2012 15:25:36 GMT
After all I have been through I wish I had invested in an SPX-5. Today a new motor came from the English supplier, only it had a 19 teeth gear instead of the explicitly specified 14 teeth gear.  Probably this one is for the 'Grand Prix' version of the ST4000+ drive unit - made for boats up to 7 tons. I wonder if Raymarine uses the same part number for the 14 teeth version and the 19 teeth version. Anyway what they sent me is useless and I have to try and sort this out. Tomorrow I'm looking at a 25 mile crossing, singlehanded, without an autopilot which I could have reassembled inside half an hour. Luckily the present 25-30 knot winds will abate around mid-day...  |
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Post by tedp on May 2, 2012 12:12:29 GMT
Well, a few days on, safely made the crossing in very fine weather using a line round the tiller so I could make sail. I'm now back home and looking into ways of putting the 14 tooth pinion gear from the old motor (left) on the new motor (right):  www.009dutch.nl/jeanneau/569_02_05_12_2_06_52.jpeg |
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Post by sailbleu on May 2, 2012 18:01:28 GMT
Very likely that worn out brushes caused the motor to burn out , of course that knowledge doesn't help you any further now.
I'm sure the cogwheel is removable , I would suggest to give it a go with the old one.
Interesting and usefull info you're sharing here , please keep us posted.
Kind regards
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Post by tedp on May 2, 2012 19:47:17 GMT
Thanks, sailbleu - well, it has taken me some time and energy, but I finally managed to repair the tiller drive motor. I had quite a busy day. Here are some photos showing the process step by step. 1 – removing the 14 tooth brass pinion from the defective motor, for re-use on the new motor. In a DIY store I found a 3mm mild steel connector plate used in timber building construction. This has a number of holes fit for a pinion gear to pass through. I had already tapped the motor shaft a few mm through the housing to create space for something to be inserted under the pinion. A 3.5mm slot was cut in another piece of mild steel to provide a support for the pinion.  www.009dutch.nl/jeanneau/569_02_05_12_8_52_22.jpeg2 – having ground off the tip of a 3mm steel nail, I used this to drive the shaft of the defective motor out of the gear. The tip must be ground off as it will spread the shaft otherwise, making removal even more difficult.  www.009dutch.nl/jeanneau/569_02_05_12_8_53_47.jpeg3 – the pinion of the new motor which was a different size (19 teeth and large diameter) had to be sawn off, which proved rather difficult as it was a steel one. To prevent iron swarf from entering the motor I taped off the holes in the casing. The shaft was nicked slightly, but not seriously.  www.009dutch.nl/jeanneau/569_02_05_12_8_55_34.jpeg4 – finally I pressed the old brass pinion on the shaft of the new motor, using a vice, with a drop of loctite to fix it better. I don’t think this was really needed as it took quite a lot of pressure to push the pinion on. I supported both the shaft at the rear and the pinion at the front with a flat piece of steel.  www.009dutch.nl/jeanneau/569_02_05_12_8_56_39.jpegTesting the motor in an unloaded state resulted in a current draw of about 0.6 amps. Trial fitting it in the drive unit and re-running it produced a current draw of about 1.6 amps, well inside the spec mentioned in the Raymarine manual. After reassembling the drive unit, I tested it on a battery and it ran perfectly both ways. Next is running trials on board, seeing how it works together with the control unit... ;D |
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Post by tedp on May 3, 2012 13:10:02 GMT
Today I completed sea trials successfully. The control and motor units function correctly. I did a full re-calibration. The motor unit, when running up to its end stop, is fed a few short pulses, then cuts out. It seems the control unit limits the power if necessary.
I gave the system a seaworthiness certificate (self-issued!) ;D
The only thing that doesn't work correctly is the self-tack function. Once set in the calibration menu, it works once, then it will work only one way. Does this sound familiar to anyone?
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Post by tedp on Jun 10, 2012 18:20:07 GMT
After repairing the ST4000, the second hand control head with version 11 firmware I obtained from another Jeanneau skipper didn't function correctly which is probably due to a settings problem as I don't have the v11 manual. So I substituted my old one with v14 firmware, and it proved to work! I spent some time setting up the autopilot and was left with a few issues. One of this was that the pilot didn't like to sail close to the wind. It kept about 20 degrees off the best angle. If you luffed using the pilot, it started creeping towards the wind and finally the boat either hung, or even went through the wind very slowly. In addition, running before wind and sea was a nightmare as the rudder would needlessly be worked through a 10 degree range even when perfectly on course, when rolling before the sea. The boat yawed terribly. EUREKA! (I hope) Today I had a Eureka experience (I hope) as I wanted to move the flux gate compass from the stern towards the cupboard in the aft cabin, hoping to improve the yawing problem. When I took the compass off the bulkhead, it rattled not just because of the sensor banging around in the housing, but there was a small particle that made itself heard. I opened the housing and out fell a tiny metal pin. This proved to be one of the bearing pins of the gimbal rings. As a result the compass wouldn't level when the boat heeled, and when the boat rolled it would merrily roll along at various angles to the earth magnetic field. Small wonder the pilot wouldn't steer the boat before the wind. I glued the pin in place and reassembled the compass. I performed calibrating turns and now I'm awaiting a chance to sail in a bit of wind and sea, to check on its performance. I hope it will be better now... ;D Photo of the flux gate compass, with the offending pin (now safely glued in the gimbal ring) indicated:  www.009dutch.nl/jeanneau/569_10_06_12_7_57_29.jpeg |
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Post by MartyB on Jun 11, 2012 3:30:13 GMT
gee! now we know what the REAL issue was! it just took some other issues to find it!
still not sure which option to choose from, will get one or the other sooner than later I hope. There was another brand, Saga?!?! that has some pilots, not sure if they are any better worst than the Raymarine options.
marty
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Post by tedp on Jun 11, 2012 7:13:16 GMT
There is Simrad and there is Jefa. I haven't got any experience of either. Jefa looks very well engineered but is expensive. One of our members (Flightdeck) wrote he was fitting a Jefa to his SO32. My ST4000 had several issues which I luckily had the time for to check out one by one. The main one was the motor that had burned out. I'm not sure whether the missing gimbal pin in the flux gate compass had anything to do with it, but it must have contributed. There is one remaining issue which is the lack of a proper end switch off system. If the pilot works at the limit of its rudder angle range, the drive locks up. The motor keeps getting power pulses however, which heats it up very quickly. I will investigate how the unit works now the compass is working as it should. If the heating up problem persists I may fit limit switches myself. There is someone who did so to an ST1000 after he experienced motors burning out: www.cruisingonstrider.us/ST1000mods.htm |
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Post by MartyB on Jun 11, 2012 14:21:54 GMT
Yeah it was a Simrad I was trying to remember. I have not seen nor heard of Jefa. That brand if European in nature, may not have made it over here to the nw left coast of US. What little I have read and heard, the simrad seems a bit stronger/better....then again, when looked at cost for cost, the Simrad is usually rated a bit less. Have not looked at other specs super close to see if the lbs/torque type things are equal, or equal lbs thrust per lbs of boat.........
I'm a bit smaller than you, my boat is more inline with an S0 28 size, only a bit lighter by 1500-2000 lbs or so, ie about 6500-7000 vs 8-9000 iirc for the SO28. The 4000 may work fine for me in where I sail etc too. Not too many waves over 1-1.5M, and if they are that big, it is blowing over 35-40 knots, unless I am in the straight of Juan De Fuca, then one can find some 3-4+M waves in those winds.
Marty
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Post by tedp on Jun 11, 2012 15:07:31 GMT
Here are a few links to the Jefa website. They are based in Denmark.: www.jefa.com/steering/products/drives/direct-dd1.htmwww.jefa.com/The engineering looks very good, but I have seen some prices quoted which make you think twice. Where I sail normally the wave height will not go much over 1 metre. It is shallow water though, with short steep waves making for a bumpy ride. Part of it is non-tidal, but the tidal portions can get fairly rough in wind over tide conditions. Out at sea in 40 knots of wind we can experience far more (like 3 metres), but I'd rather keep out of that if I can help it. I wonder how any autopilot would manage in that. |
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Post by MartyB on Jun 11, 2012 20:27:17 GMT
Ted,
Sounds like you and I have some same conditions generally speaking. I had looked up the Jefa stuff one time, but realized it is more aimed at wheel steer setups, vs tiller. Then again, whilst driving around earlier today, brain goes, why wouldn't a wheel setup work on a tiller? still a matter of getting the pump to work on the rudder shaft! That may be too simple of thinking. Reality is, an ST4000 might be the easiest to hook up.
marty
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Post by tedp on Jun 11, 2012 23:55:01 GMT
The ST4000 is obsolete. If you need a tiller pilot for your boat I would go for the Raymarine SPX-5. This is a modern version of the 4000+ and it's fitted with a gyro sensor that detects course changes quicker than the flux gate compass does. I hear very good reports of them. Over here they had them for about 1000 euros recently.
Despite the inherent weaknesses of the Raymarine design I think they are good enough for our kind of use, as long as you know what to watch for - I stumbled across almost all the problems I think are possible! In addition, they have a worldwide service network provided you have the latest model. I'm unfamiliar with Simrad equipment and the Jefa stuff seems to be very expensive.
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Post by MartyB on Jun 12, 2012 2:20:08 GMT
Actually looking at Raymarines stuff, the ST2000 appears to be an equal to the old 4000. Good to 10K lbs of boat......but both the 1000 and 2000 have the gyro compass. The 1000 is good to about 6500 lbs of boat. That would probably be AT the limit for my boat. The 2000 would be my thought, unless a 4000 was stronger yet. But as you say, it appears to be replaced with the SPX-5. But three times as pricey vs the 2000! Wonder if it is worth $600 vs about $1800 US dollars...........
Marty
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Post by tedp on Jun 12, 2012 8:09:30 GMT
Actually I didn't know the ST2000 was still available. That would be OK for an Arcadia.
The ST1000 as far as I know doesn't have a gyro. I had one on my previous boat and it only had the flux gate compass. Have they upgraded it?
EDIT - both the ST1000 and the ST2000 are fitted only with the flux gate compass, according to the Raymarine website. This just mentions the gyro sensor with the SPX-5 and over. The ST-1000 which I used on my old boat was perfectly OK although it didn't like over-canvassed sailing on a broad reach. I expect the ST2000 which is a more powerful version will be very similar, and quite acceptable if your displacement is less than 4.5 tons.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2012 17:29:24 GMT
Tedp is correct. The ST1000 and ST2000 do not have a gyro. In fact, the basic X5-Tiller doesn’t have the gyro either. It’s only the X5-Tiller Grand Prix version that has the gyro.
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Post by MartyB on Jun 13, 2012 4:24:22 GMT
I'll have to look closer at the 5 vs 2000. Not sure a gyro is that much better than the flux compass. but could be wrong. Turns out the there is a 2-1 difference in price, not 3-1 as I posted earlier. A little over $500 for the 2000, $11xx for the spx5. May have to see if both are somewhere to look at to see what the difference would really be. looks and otherwise.
The 2000 at 10K max, vs my boat at 6500, maybe 7500 max, the spx 5 good to 13K.....both should have the strength. If I was off shore in some BIG waves, I could see the bigger unit as a benefit, where I am, smaller may just work peachy frankly. If it does not work, ie too weak, I should probably not be out in that weather locally any how!
marty
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Post by tedp on Jun 13, 2012 7:50:42 GMT
The added advantage of the ST2000 is having a very compact unit and little work to install. For the SPX-5 you need to saw a big hole in your cockpit coaming or in the back of the cabin. In addition you need to find a place for installing the processor.
If you were sailing offshore in big waves in a fairly lightweight boat I wonder if any automatic pilot would cope. As you say you (or me, or anyone) probably shouldn't be out in such weather anyway.
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Post by MartyB on Jun 13, 2012 12:57:14 GMT
Ted,
You have hit the proverbial nail as to why I have been toying with a 2000 over the 5. Everything is included, no other holes to drill in the back of the cabin with the other instruments etc.
Marty
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Post by tedp on Jun 13, 2012 19:19:24 GMT
Well I hope I helped you to make up your mind.  Today I took the boat out in a 12 to 16 knot wind, to test the tiller pilot with the repaired compass. It worked like it has never worked before. I think the compass has been dud during all the time I had the boat. I managed to sail reasonably close to the wind (about 50-60 degrees, 35 degrees apparent) and when I had reefed once and trimmed down she ran about 5.5 knots, being steered by the pilot. Steering by hand improved performance, but for a long passage she was snug enough using the pilot. With the wind and a choppy 2ft sea on the quarter there was a bit of yawing but not nearly as much as before. I think we yawed through a 20-25 degree angle, excepting one or two bigger course interrupts when we were hit by a gust. The autopilot brought us back on course without any fuss. |
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Post by MartyB on Jun 15, 2012 3:19:04 GMT
SOunds like about as good as one can expect at times frankly. I am sure a stronger one would hold you a bit better. yet even in some of the same conditions, it is hard for me to hold the above at times. Altho I have a feeling we humans figure out the yaw part better than a machine/computer can!
The 2000 has been the item on my mind for the most part. Probably what I will get. On the other hand, if a spx5 base unit could be had, then a head with both the pilot ability, along with a gps was available......that could be worth the messing with tearing things apart per say, and going with a harder installation!
Raymarine has some come see, get X% off at some of the local chandlery's, so may have to go have a talk with a rep to see what options I may have........Generally speaking, I think the 2000 will do everything better than my rope tiller tamer.........it will only go 90 to where I want to go, does not adjust to my weight shifting on the boat etc when motoring.......
Marty
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Post by tedp on Jun 15, 2012 4:41:43 GMT
The ST2000 will accept Seatalk input from other Raymarine instruments, and NMEA 0180 or 0183 input from other instruments, so it can work together with wind instruments and GPS units. A simple handheld GPS unit that outputs NMEA data can be interfaced with an ST2000, though I haven't done so myself.
You are right in saying a human helmsman does better keeping the course before wind and sea, but generally an autopilot does better than a human because it will work for hours on end without attention lagging. If you often sail solo, it is much better than a rope around the tiller.
The main restriction of tiller pilots is the limited stroke length so they are less forgiving of bad sail trim. You won't have more than about 15 degrees of rudder to either side.
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Post by MalcolmP on Jun 15, 2012 8:57:18 GMT
..... There was another brand, Saga?!?! that has some pilots, not sure if they are any better worst than the Raymarine options. marty Lewmar have just launched a new range as well www.lewmar.com/News-Article.asp?Article=7544spoilt for choice... |
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Probably this one is for the 'Grand Prix' version of the ST4000+ drive unit - made for boats up to 7 tons.
